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RE: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #189
I don't know if you can help me but, I am looking for a good plant
supplier in the area and wondered if you have any recommendations. I am
looking for a wide variety of plants. Currently I purchase through the
Fish Store in Bellevue, but find their prices to be pretty steep.
From: Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com
[SMTP:Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 12:49 AM
To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
Subject: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #189
Aquatic Plants Digest Wednesday, April 8 1998 Volume 03
: Number 189
In this issue:
Re: Trapa natans
Algae growth in CO2 Reactor
Re: Red soil
Re:Nothing Under... Please...NO
lighting for Crypts
Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #188
Re: Nothing under the gravel
ballast for 24 inch, t-8 bulbs
hard water / peat substrates
Substrate for Aponogeton rigidifolious
Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #185
See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from
Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:03:38 -0700
From: Jim Wilson <freaks at aracnet_com>
Subject: test kits
I know that the kits form Lamotte are superior (superior price
will the following kits work?:
Buying all Lamotte kits will cost an extra $90!!! Should I just
bullet and go for the Lamotte? Any info from folks with
the Seachem or any other reliable kits would be greatly
Also has anyone had good results with GH kits other than
Lammote's GH kit
I do plan on getting Lamotte's pH and KH kits.
This will be my first planted tank and I want to know whats
going on, in
it. Are there any other recomended test kits?
I have about twenty years experience with unplanted FW tanks and
years of SW tanks (I haven't done the SW for about six years).
And I think
that the discovery of this list is the best thing that has
that time. That is untill I have my first sucessful palnted
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:49:36 -0500
From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
Subject: Re: Trapa natans
>From: Sebastien Amodeo <m231674 at er_uqam.ca>
>X-Sender: m231674 at nobel_si.uqam.ca
>To: krandall at world_std.com
>cc: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
>Subject: Re: Water chestnut (Trapa natans)
>sorry about the omission! I forgot to specify that Trapa natans
>_already_ present in the lake!
>Thanks anyways for the observation!
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:16:24 -0400
From: "James Purchase" <jpurch at interlog_com>
Subject: Algae growth in CO2 Reactor
This morning, while puttering around my tank, I noticed that my
which contains Dupla Minicascades (small bio-balls) and has a
downward flow of CO2 and water, is developing a lot of what
appears to be
long stringy green algae. I haven't seen this before, nor have I
anything about it in any post on CO2 Reactors. Has anyone
of algae within their CO2 Reactors? (the main tank is O.K., a
bit of easily
removed green algae on the glass but certainly no "plague")
jpurch at interlog_com
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:07:29 -0700
From: "Toan T." <RiceGuy at stones_com>
Subject: Re: Red soil
Remember a while back reading a thing on red clays. Sorry
I can't remember the writer to credit. But I remember him
writing that the red color is a definite indication of
iron (actually rust). He said that he worked in the clay
industry for years and found it to be very hard to color
clay without iron oxide. I am guessing that this is
likewise for soil. I can't imagine anything else that
could cause the soil to have a red color.
From what I learned from S. Pushak, I am guessing that
the iron rich soil would make an excellent bottom layer.
Check out his page yet?
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:03:11 -0700
From: sae at arts_ubc.ca
Subject: Re:Nothing Under... Please...NO
>From: "Merrill Cohen" <amc2 at ix_netcom.com>
>Subject: Nothing under the gravel
>This is really open for discussion............
>Why not let the waste of the fish be utilized instead of so
>Once again, this is open for discussion for a "new thread".
I'm not being critical or picky here, but, this discussion would
a "new thread"... substrates have been done to death...gravel,
laterite, Terralit, Jobes Sticks, kitty litter.....Pleeeese....
Let's go back to what colour is water in a white bucket....<G>
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:20:05 -0700
From: Stephen Pushak <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
Subject: lighting for Crypts
Olga wrote in response to Bebbetufs "Please help..giving up!":
> >- -Preveausly I had approx. 70w of fluorecent lightning, but
> >decided to get a 250w MH. lamp.
> You have changed your lighting drastically.
> Swords and crypts do well in
> low-medium light. They would take time to adjust
> to such a big light boost
> plus they both like a rich substrate which was also disturbed.
> One could expect the crypts to melt [right Steve?].
Yes. Most Crypt species will melt with such an increase in light
they will recover in a few weeks given good conditions.
Crypts don't _have_ to be grown under low-medium light but are
I think many people grow very nice Crypts under strong light,
sunlight under emersed humid conditions. That is how to get them
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:44:02 -0400
From: Dan Q <dqallwet at avana_net>
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #188
> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:07 PST8PDT
> From: "Darrell Roze" <roze at excaliber_commerce.ubc.ca>
> Subject: ricca and java moss
> If a problem with getting the java moss and ricca to hold
> the java moss flipping, would it be better to just grow them
> shallow container and just let them grow together instead of
> keeping them sandwiched together?
I suspect the Riccia would still float to the top, and the
Java Moss to the bottom. Actually, the flipping is not a big problem,
you just need to check it daily. I do suggest that you keep the Java
Moss in as thin a layer as you can get it when you start. I try to start
with about an inch of Riccia on both sides of the Java Moss, but that
quickly changes as these
two plants have there own idea of where how much of each
belongs. It may work just as well to try and keep the Java Moss on top
of the Riccia for a week or so and then forget to check it for a month
or so like I did. The Java Moss should go to the bottom (of the clump)
and the Riccia to the top and when it's ready you should have a nice
thick Riccia mat like I
ended up with that can be used on top of the substrate. At
least I think you should be able to. I haven't found enough bare
substrate anywhere to try it so I'm still floating the chunk.
The one piece that I did attach to the bottom is now about 7
1/2" high and 5 " wide. Now that I removed that big slab of Riccia from
the surface I' m hoping the extra light will increase the size quicker
on this planted glob.
A side note about Riccia. The biggest grower that I know of
that has Riccia is in Florida. As soon as the water warms up (which is
about now) the Riccia disappears until next winter.
> It sounds like a really good idea to grow these two plants
> I was wondering what they look like. Does it look primarily
like a clump of
You have to look hard to see the Java Moss. I hope some others
try this and have the same success. It is gorgeous.
All Aquatic Plants
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:45:53 -0600 (MDT)
From: George Booth <booth at hpmtlgb1_lvld.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Nothing under the gravel
> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:28:21 -0400
> From: "Merrill Cohen" <amc2 at ix_netcom.com>
> I have several very attractive aquariums (IMO) that have been
set up for
> over six years with NOTHING under the three inches of silica
> keep lots of fish (not an overload) and the fish mulm goes
down into the
> Why not let the waste of the fish be utilized instead of so
> questionable substrates?
I have no trouble believing a substrate free of additives will
growth. When we had our UGF tank, it produced tons of lush
growth. I even
suspect (but can't prove) that it supported better growth than
our "high tech"
tanks for the majority of the plants we've kept.
However, there are three concerns with this approach:
1) How long does it take to get the tank to a state where it
growth? I believe the aquarists of antiquity called this a
"seasoned" tank (as
opposed to a "cycled" tank that has all the bacterial fauna in
remember we had problems with the UGF tank at first, lo these
many years ago.
After we started with CO2 and Dupla, it really took off. Or was
coincidentally now properly seasoned?
There are many stories of people struggling with a tank for a
good number of
months, only to have it suddenly snap into vibrant life. Was it
the last thing
they tried (to be endlessly posted to UseNet as the "hot setup")
or did the tank
finally settle in with the proper balance of fish waste #2 and
With the modern day need for instant gratification, I think
people are searching
for the "instant on" approach where plants will be growing
robustly right from
the git-go. Many search for the magic formula, whether it's
substrates or Dollar Gobbling High Tech. Is the magic formula
2) How difficult is it to "create the right balance" in the
simple tank? I
would bet that I could not duplicate (not to be confused with
the more expensive
Duplacate) my success with the UGF tank. Oh, I thought it might
have been the
"slow flow" produced by just the right model and number of
powerheads or the
"proper" fertilizers, CO2 and lights. I bet those helped, but I
bet even more
that we had just the right number of fish and fed them just the
right amount of
food and had just the right mix of plants and we struggled just
long enough for
the system to be seasoned.
While it may be possible for someone to duplicate their own
results, it may be
more problematical for others in different parts of the country
to produce the
same results. Different local dirt, different tap water,
skills, different expectations, etc.
3) How long will the right conditions exist? We had to do
massive vacuuming of
the UGF tank every 6-9 months to keep things "stable". We would
things were not up to snuff and pull all the plants up and
vacuum like the
dickens. Then things were great for another 6-9 months. We had
lots of fish
with hearty appettites. Maybe we overfed, causing perceived
Or was it the act of pulling up the plants, doing a thorough
love") and replanting them that did the trick? Maybe
were builing up around the roots (even with the UGF) and causing
I think our high tech tanks are much more stable than the UGF
tank ever was. The
need for high tech may simply be a consequence of our desire to
keep more fish
than we should. Clearly, Merrill is doing quite well with a
The high tech approach is [un]naturally better "balanced" since
we actively do
the balancing by throwing money at the problem. WE control the
pH, WE control
the nitrates, etc.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:16:07 -0400
From: "Robert NG" <97ngrobe at scar_utoronto.ca>
Subject: ballast for 24 inch, t-8 bulbs
does anyone know if there is any ballast that can run 4, 24inch,
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:41:09 -0700
From: "Shane M. Peter" <pgahopefull at earthlink_net>
Subject: Metal Halide
Good evening! I was curious; is there a vast difference
halide bulbs other than the wattage? I guess what I want to know
is if there
is a "wrong" metal halide to buy. And, most people say that to
successful planted tank you need to have at least 2
the lumens that a metal halide produces is at least 4 times the
any incandescent or fluorescent bulb. So, does the same 2
have to be adhered to? Thanks.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:55:39 -0700
From: "Toan T." <RiceGuy at stones_com>
Subject: hard water / peat substrates
What possible methods are there to reduce water hardness?
I know two; deionization and reverse osmosis. are there
any other ways of reducing hardness? I'm still very
confused on the subject of water hardness -- the scales,
the types of hardness -- despite my efforts to understand
I recently read that the addition of peat would render
the chart many people use to determine CO2 concentration
by measuring water hardness and pH to be inaccurate. This
makes sense, because peat moss only lowers pH and not
water hardness... doesn't it?
Today, I found myself lost in thought... it was
- -Toan Tran
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:13:19 -0400
From: Bernard Romano <romano at pathway1_pathcom.com>
Subject: Substrate for Aponogeton rigidifolious
I'm new to the group but I've been here for over a year really.
has a KH of 1.5 and finding tolerent species of plants is
far, Bolbitis heudelotii is doing well. I'm considering getting
rigidifolius as it needs a KH of between 1 and 3 dCH according
Aquarium Plants Manual and Hans A. Baensch's Aquarium Atlas 2. I
buying it from Tropica but what bothers me is that on the
they state that it needs a well fertilized ground while the two
just mentioned say the exact opposite, that there must be
nutrients. Who is right? Also, Tropica's "Tiger" Vallisneria is
tolerate soft water according to the website description of it
wondering if anyone has had experience with what this variety of
vallisneria likes. With the soft water that I have I'd be
biogenic decalcification with other types of vallisneria for
for your help.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:40:11 -0500
From: "dakota" <dakota at startext_net>
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #185
- -----Original Message-----
From: Aquatic Plants Digest <Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com>
To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com <Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com>
Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 2:52 AM
Subject: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #185
>Aquatic Plants Digest Monday, April 6 1998 Volume 03
: Number 185
>In this issue:
> steve's substrate
> PMDD QUESTION
> My Final Thoughts.
> My setup & water parameters(long)
> Water chestnut (Trapa natans)
>See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from
>Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
all...Ive been reading the posts for quite some time and would
like to ask a
few questions,if anyone has time ...What is this PMDD stuff some
about? I have been TRYING to grow some plants in a 55 gal tank
results.I would like to try some fertilizer but dont want to
kill or sicken
the fish..Could some one give me some pointers? TIA Charles
>Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 15:04:37 -0500
>From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:47:03 -0800
>>From: Rice <RiceGuy at stones_com>
>>To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
>>Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #121
>>I wrote sent this a few days back, but didn't see it. If
>>this is a double post, I apologize.
>>Finally, today, after much efforts, I started to cut off
>>*GREEN* leaves! All I can say is sincerest thanks to all of
>>you, especially Steve Pushak, who devoted hours of his time
>>to privately correspond with me and who made sure I did it
>>right. All of you who were ever so kind to help out the
>>newbie... I can't say enough of how great a list this is, or
>>of how much collective knowledge is found on here.
>>I see a few little baby plants popping up from nowhere-
>>isn't it so cool? Already, I'm imagining my future 300
>>gal planted tank... awwwiiiieeeee! Hope I win the lottery
>>I've been wondering if freezing PMDD (the stuff that has
>>already been mixed) would help. would it help preserve it?
>>or would that be counter productive?
>>I recently found out that I have too much Mg in my pmdd;
>>about twice as much as recommended in the formula. Is this
>> As of now, my tank (50 gal hexagon) is vacant,
>>except for a
>>few ghost shrimps. thinking of adding a pair of discus. My
>>water, however, is very unfavorable for keeping soft, acidic
>>water fishes. pH is around 8.3 and I'm guessing that the
>>hardness is around 22 KH. Now, if I want to lower the pH, I
>>can do one of the following or a combination: 1) increase
>>CO2 (unlikely to be very effective because I dont want CO2
>>poisoning), I figured that i can get the pH to 7.34 if I
>>increase CO2 to 30 ppm. 2) add peat. Probably won't need to
>>do that because my substrate is already partly made of peat.
>>pH would lower over time. Only, this would mean that I can't
>>change the water that often. Thinking of making an automatic
>>water changer... so you can see my conflict. 3) use RO
>>water. seems to be the best choice, but a real hassle
>>though. changing water with a 5 gallon bottle doesn't sound
>>very fun. 4) not changing water at all. Please advice me
>>here, I have no clue as to what will result form this.
>> Hooking the RO up as the automatic water changer is
>>option. Can't afford it, need the RO for drinking water,
>>parents wont let, yada, yada, yada... Any expensive options
>>are out of the question; my budget is in my wallet, and my
>>wallet is rather thin and sickly looking. :-| I've been
>>doing pretty good on my spending so far, (substrate <-- most
>>expensive!, CO2, aquarium stand, reactor, lights, gravel,
>>plants, heater, power head, fertilizer, etc..), ran a total
>>of about $100 (got tank for free). pretty good huh? Anyway,
>>if you can think of anyway to get a low pH at a low cost,
>>please let me know.
>>And once again, thanks to all of you- amazing I got this
>Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 23:03:18 -0700
>From: "Toan T." <RiceGuy at stones_com>
>Subject: steve's substrate
>There was someone a short while back that was about to
>try steve's substrate method. Just wanted to tell that
>person that his method worked for me! Plants look great!
>And the thing I like best about it is that it is cheap.
>Oh yeah, Steve, how long does your substrate last? 2, 3
>years? think I can stretch that if I start adding pmdd
>when the plants start to show signs of deficiency?
>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:20:42 +0800
>From: Michael Cordero <taburnok at skyinet_net>
>Subject: PMDD QUESTION
>hi me again .. i need to know if there are sources for PMDD
>who can do mail order and ship here to MANILA .. if someone
>out there has any info on this please help out .. im really
>in rolling my own ... TIA
>Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:48:06 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Thomas Moeller <n9345228 at cc_wwu.edu>
>Subject: My Final Thoughts.
>First, my apologies for continuing this thread. I realize the
>been closed by our adminstrator, but I would like to put a
peaceful end to
>all of this, so we can better continue with what we all love to
>that's keeping aquatic plants. First, although easily
>orignal post was meant to be a sharing of a great deal, of
which I thought
>a lot of people could relate to. You see, I am a senior at
>Washington University and not suprisingly have no money and
>more money into my fish hobby every month than buying food for
>you know, keeping fish and aquatic plants in a serious way is
>those without money....nevertheless, my *deal* at Petsmart in
>Anubia congensis for $1.49 each was just that, a great deal!
>for a poor college kid who now could play with 35 awesome
>to clarify, I did not steal. You can twist it anyway you like.
>were no other price tags that said Anubia...nor have I ever
seen them in
>that store before! Yes, I guessed that they had goofed in a
big way, but
>I don't feel I have an overwhelming duty to society to point
>everyone's mistakes, especially in the retail world. Finally,
I find it
>quite disgusting if not surprising that you would all berate me
>cases multiple times by the same people) and send me such
things as quotes
>from the bible, calling me a communist, a thief, a criminal,
>etc....come on people. Surely we can all get excited about
this and yes,
>it's easy to mistaken things on email...they come across in
>to different people...but let's calm down. Once again, my goal
>voice my excitement about these great plants and the fact I got
>deal. I am sure that *IF* this was a mistake by Petsmart, it
>anybody's retirement fund, send me to hell, or alienate me from
>Now, we are all fairly intelligent people with a great common
>Let's put this behind us and talk about aquatic plants. My
>taking up bandwith with this and previous off-topic
>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:39:34 -0400
>From: "Thomas E. Cooper" <avian at ee_net>
>Subject: My setup & water parameters(long)
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Here we go again.
> I respectfully ask for someone to please read this and answer
>Quetions please. I have sent a few posts to the list so far
>went unanswered. I will be sending for a report from the water
>will be comparing my test results with theres'.
>Aint nature grand
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>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="msg00538.html"
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><H1>My setup & water parameters(long)</H1>
HREF="mailto:aquatic-plants at actwin_com">aquatic-plants at actwin_com</A></s
><LI><strong>Subject</strong>: <strong>My setup & water
><LI><strong>From</strong>: <strong>"Thomas E. Cooper" <<A
HREF="mailto:avian at ee_net">avian at ee_net</A>></strong></LI>
><LI>Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:41:07 -0500</LI>
> I have been lurking awhile. I have got my setup together
>the plants. My water parameters are abit confusing to me. Any
>would be appreciated.
> I own a ninety gallon tank, my filteration is a magnum
>canister filter, I have Ehiem ceramic tiles in the charcol
>also have a Emporer powerfilter (400GPH) by Penguin on the back
>tank. It has the pads that came with it , they have some
>them. In the cartriges I have Fluval peat granuals. Right now
>have an undergravel filter powered by 2 Penguin 550 powerheads
>each) reverse flow. The The gravel for this filter is 1-3mm,
>5" thick I plan on adding Duplarit k Pellets to the
>lighting will be provided 2 40W Flora-Glow by Hagen, and 2 40W
>also by Hagen. There will be one of each in both striplights,
>20W 24" cool white bulbs in the original striplight. The two
>striplights have alunimium reflectors. I have four halfgrown
>curviceps, five young Bleedinghearts, one Corydoras jullii, 3
>and one Otocinclus sp.(I started with 3).
>I plan on adding three more Bleedinghearts, and eight Cardinal
>I do have some algea, but not much. Mainly just the bright
>that sticks to the glass. I plan on getting a small Pleco till
>plants come then replacing him with acouple SAEs. I do 30%
>every week. I condition the new water with Tetra's Aquasafe.
The temp is
>around eightyfive.( The heater only runs in the dead of
winter, I have
>been unsuccessful in lowering the temp.).
> I did tests on both my tap water and the aquarium water with
>Pharm Ltd's Deluxe Fresh lab.. I did a waterchange about a
> Tap Tank
>Ph 7.2 6.2
>KH 1 Deg. O Deg.
>GH 7 Deg. 7 Deg.
>Fe 0.1 ppm O.1 ppm
>Nitrite 0 ppm 0.05 ppm
>Toxic NH O 0.00075ppm
>Co2 10 Triation The color wouldn't change.?????
>The tank has been up and running for five years without the
>power filter and therefor no Peat. It used to have a large
>of Central american cichlids. They did very well.
> My Question is are. Before adding plants should I turn off
>undergravel filter and use the powerheads for watermovement. Is
>substrate two thick, If not how do I keep the substrate from
>anoxic if the ugf filter isn't running. Obviously the PH and
the KH are
>too low Does this have to do with the fact that I couldn't get
>on the Co2 in the tank water. I thought that central Ohio's
>high Ph and KH because all the limestone, which is
>The GH seems to be just alittle high. Should I remove the peat
>powerfilter. I plan on makeing some PMDD from recipes in the
>Any thoughts on geting my water parameters in line for plants.
>this was very long. Thanks for youre patience.
>Aint nature grand
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>Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:28:29 -0500
>From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
>Subject: Water chestnut (Trapa natans)
>>Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 21:29:20 -0400
>>From: "Sibastien Amodeo" <m231674 at er_uqam.ca>
>>To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com, m231674 at er_uqam.ca
>>Subject: Water chestnut (Trapa natans)
>>I'm a master's student (environmental sciences) at the
>>Quibec in Montrial, and our team is researching the
possibility of using
>>the water chestnut (Trapa natans) as a possible way of
>>phosphorus in an eutrophic lake. We have chosen this plant
because it is
>>also a non-native aquatic plant causing problems with lake
>>We need the most information possible on this plant,
>>concerning its reproduction, life cycle, and anything related
>>nutrient (particularly phosphorus) uptakes.
>>Our idea was to restrain the plants in a certain area, using a
>>specially designed fences, and to collect the plants once they
>>grown. The collected plants could then serve as compost or
>>If anyone has any ideas, suggestions, remarks, or experience
>>be helpful, please contact me directly (I'm not on the mailing
>>Thank you very much!
>>m231674 at er_uqam.ca
>End of Aquatic Plants Digest V3 #185
>To unsubscribe to aquatic-plants, send the command:
> unsubscribe aquatic-plants
>in the body of a message to "Majordomo at ActWin_com". Archives
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>or via FTP to ftp.actwin.com in /pub/aquaria/aquatic-plants.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 21:25:28 PDT
From: "Kent Turner" <tropic_cove at hotmail_com>
Subject: Re: Aquaterrararium.
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:03:03 +0400
> From: "Gerald Lisik" <dogl at intnet_mu>
> I'm new to this list and this is my first post: Can
> tips and instructions to make an aquaterrarium based on
> My girlfriend always wanted me to start one and I found
> attractive, plants both on land and under water, in the
> to all,
The new trendy name for this is "paludarium", from the Latin
I suggest you search the web with this key - there are some
out there, but I don't have the URLs handy.
I have been a lurker here for some time about a year ago, and
recently, but have never tried posting here before. This
message is to
see if this works, and also because I thought that if you were
interested in different ideas to set up a paludarium, you may
check out the paludarium page of my website,
This isn't a very graphics oriented site, so you won't see lots
paludarium pictures, but it does briefly describe some of the
types of paludarium setups. BTW, this list is great! I learned
a lot a
year ago, and remember when Dr. Quackenbush was busy defending
litter method. It's strange to see it so popular now,
the heat it stirred up back then!
- -Kent Turner
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