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Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1119



Aquatic Plants Digest wrote:
> 
> Aquatic Plants Digest   Saturday, December 6 1997   Volume 02 : Number 1119
> 
> In this issue:
> 
>         N-limited/P Limited
>         Allelopathy
>         Re:Lighting Info
>         Re:CO2 from Carbon Electrode
>         Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1118
>         Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1116
>         Goat Milk Tablets as fertilizer
>         PMDD trade for live food...
>         Re: Bacterial Bloom
>         aquatic carnivores
>         root gravatrophism
>         Fishmas list - heater
>         RE:Fishmas
>         Re: Bacterial Bloom
> 
> See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the
> Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:04:38 -0800
> From: "Dixon, Steven" <stdixon at bechtel_com>
> Subject: N-limited/P Limited
> 
> Karen Randall, Jeff Kropp and I have had an off-line conversation that
> might be of interest to the group.
> 
> Steve wrote:
> Jeff Kropp and I have been chatting (almost daily recently) thinking
> about trying to reconcile your reports on your tanks with the whole
> N-limited PMDD story.  Paul Sears' note yesterday got us going again.
> What Paul described was a P-limited situation where he added P (to the
> water column, I presume) and watched the nitrate levels drop noticeably.
>  The thought was that the extra P allowed additional uptake of nitrates
> that otherwise would have been left in the water column.  This confirmed
> the P-limited situation in the tank Paul described, as I understand it.
> 
> Karen wrote:
> That certainly sounds accurate, and is what I would expect to see.  You
> just have to hope that the higher plants capture those nutrients before
> the algae kicks in.
> 
> Steve wrote:
> You report fairly regularly that your tanks almost always have zero or
> near zero nitrate levels and 'just detectable' P levels in the water
> column -- without significant algae problems of any kind.  Your
> situation is complicated in my view by two additional facts:  You do add
> nitrogen to your tank, but only in the substrate (Jobe's spikes, if I
> recall, punched deep into the substrate).  You also keep certain plants
> in pots which contain soil (with at least some additional nutrients,
> perhaps including N).
> 
> Jeff and I keep wondering whether your tanks are N-limited?  They may
> not be N-limited if you are successful at introducing N in the substrate
> and keeping it out of the water column.  We do know that your tanks are
> not P-limited because you report at least some P in the water column.
> 
> Karen wrote:
> I also think that plants are generally excellent scavengers.  I think it
> is entirely possible for them to use smaller amounts of nitrogen from
> the water than we can test for.  Let's face it.  You won't find _any_
> nitrate in the water unless some ammonium is getting past the plants and
> being processed by nitrifying bacteria.  (BTW, I think this is also true
> for iron.  I have never tested to make sure I have specific levels of
> iron in the water,  I think that specific iron levels are irrelevant.
> Plants can and do store more iron than they need for growth.  Therefore,
> if there is _any_ measurable iron in the water, you are meeting the iron
> needs of your plants.
> 
> Steve wrote:
> We were thinking of a simple experiment (essentially the opposite of
> what Paul was describing yesterday) which might resolve the question.
> If you added nitrates to your water column and observed a noticeable
> drop in the P levels, we think this would suggest that your tanks really
> are N-limited.  (The addition of the limited nutrient N resulted in
> additional uptake of P.)  If there were no drop in P levels, this might
> suggest that your tanks aren't N-limited after all; that you are putting
> enough N in the substrate to avoid this condition.
> 
> I have the feeling this could be significant information.  If the P
> levels dropped upon the addition of NO3 to the water column, I would
> want to theorize that one can have a very successful planted tank which
> is N-limited (though not N-starved) so long as the P level remains in
> the 'just detectable' range.
> 
> If it turned out that your tanks were not N-limited, then this puts
> another notch in gun stock of the N-limited folks, it seems.
> [Inartfully put to say the least.  I  didn't really mean to suggest a
> competition of that sort. <g>]  We might conclude that so long as we
> avoid the N-limited situation (however we accomplish that) we can
> tolerate a bit of P in our tanks; that we don't need to reach a
> P-limited situation so long as we avoid an N-limited situation.
> 
> What do you think?  Any interest?
> 
> Karen wrote:
> I am quite sure that my tank WATER _is_ N.  limited, at least in my more
> strongly lit tanks.  If I don't add the Jobes sticks, my plants show
> clear signs of N deficiency.  In fact, I'd love it if we could talk some
> fertilizer manufacturer into formulating a solid N-K fertilizer for use
> in planted tanks.
> 
> Jeff wrote in a later note:
> Stump remover [KNO3] is a solid, but needs dilution some how... powdered
> clay, Knox blocks?
> 
> Karen wrote:
> I don't want to make my own... I want someone else to do it for me!<g>
> You
> could always roll it in clay, but you'd have to experiment on the
> quantities needed.
> 
> Jeff wrote:
> Tetra Hilena Crypto Total N 1% from Ethylendiaminetetraacetic acid
> (proprietary name?) 0.5% water soluble N from Ethylendiaminetetraacetic
> acid iron salt soluble K20 25% from Potassium Sulfate
> 
> Karen wrote:
> I haven't seen that Tetra products do much of anything for my plants.  I
> suspect 1.5% N is just too low to have much effect.  My Jobes sticks
> work much better.
> 
> Karen continued responding to my note:
> In a few low light tanks, where I have not had much in the way of fast
> growing plants, but also haven't had algae problems because of the lower
> light levels, I have sometimes in the past measured N levels as high as
> 20mg/L.  In these tanks the plants show no signs of nitrogen deficiency,
> and I would not, of course, supplement either N or P.  Another telling
> point is that the Java Ferns, which, of course, must meet their needs
> directly through the water column grow consistently larger in these
> tanks than they do in the more strongly lit  nitrate limited tanks.
> 
> I just feel that it is "safer" for the display type tank to supplement
> macronutrients via the substrate, if at all possible, rather than the
> water column, where it can be accessed by algae.  The plants tell me
> fast enough if they need food, and it's cheaper than all those test
> kits.<g>
> 
> I think I'll pass on the experiment of adding N to my water, because my
> tanks are happy, healthy and algae free as it stands now, and I feel
> that I can adequately meet their needs via substrate supplementation.  I
> really don't want to turn my tanks into pea soup just before the
> holidays.<g>  As I think I've mentioned before, all of my tanks are in
> the living area of our house, not tucked away in a "fishroom" where I
> could experiment without the tanks being seen.
> 
> I _do_ know that this is not an isolated occurrence effected in some way
> by local tap water concentrations, because I have been instrumental in
> the setup of many other tanks in areas with very different tap water,
> and they all behave similarly.  I can't give you absolute readings from
> these other tanks because, again, unless there's a problem, I don't
> spend much time using test kits.  I only know where mine stand because
> I've tested out of curiosity from time to time.
> 
> I think the bottom line is that you can probably limit algae by limiting
> one of several nutrients in the water column.  Diana Walstad does it by
> limiting iron in the water column.  She's got way high N and P levels by
> our standards, but I've seen her tanks in person, (in fact, I used a
> photo of one of them in my Dec. AFM column) and the plants are healthy,
> and there is no visible algae, even with few or no algae eaters in the
> tanks.  In fact, the tank that I used the picture of, has one 1" long M.
> boesemani fry in it.  Diana "feeds" the tank fish food, even though
> there are essentially no fish in the tank.  She says she has done the
> same in the past with tanks that were totally fish-less.
> 
> This certainly isn't an approach I'd use, or advocate, particularly in a
> strongly lit tank.  But it clearly works for her.  (BTW, her tanks are
> soil based, which gives the plants their prime nutritional source)
> 
> Another random thought that needs to be somehow factored in to this
> discussion is the "Dupla" style tanks in Europe.  These tanks routinely
> run well, and have no real algae problems even when each water change
> floods the tank with a new supply on nitrate from the tap water.  I have
> been told that these tanks often run relatively algae free with nitrate
> in the range of 20 mg/L.  I can only assume that either the tanks are
> phosphate limited, or that even though they are open topped and lit with
> MH or MV lighting, that the lights are high enough that the effective
> light level within the tank is actually quite low.
> 
> I am convinced that Kevin and Paul's PMDD system works, not only for
> them, but that it is also reproducible by others.  (If you've been
> reading my Aquarium Frontiers column, you'll have noticed that I've
> directed people to it at least twice)  I also know that my method works
> and is reproducible under a variety of conditions.  For the people I
> work with, my method is probably preferable, because they are mostly
> novices who would be intimidated by the idea of lots of testing, let
> alone the need to brew your own supplements.  I encourage them to use
> their eyes and common sense instead.<g>
> 
> I also would not be happy with the progression of various algae types
> that I seem to hear is quite common during the calibration stage of
> working with PMDD's, whether in a new or established tank.  I don't
> _want_ to have to wait out various algae problems... I want an
> attractive tank that is free of visible algae from day one if I can at
> all manage it.  I think this is very important for people who are just
> getting started with planted tanks as well.  I think that many would get
> discouraged and quit if they had to wait through multiple blooms of
> various algae types. Not to sound too smug, but my method produces algae
> free tanks with healthy plants even in the hands of most novices.
> 
> Karen
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:02:30 EST
> From: JOlson8590 <JOlson8590 at aol_com>
> Subject: Allelopathy
> 
> There are fully documented cases of woody plants and grasses that chemically
> inhibit or prevent the growth of competing species. The most common one is
> Juglands, a toxin secreted by Black Walnut trees, which kills or seriously
> injures many woody plants. In some cases, grasses inhibit their own species,
> thereby limiting the population. This is most noticeable with certain bunch
> grasses in very dry conditions.
> 
> Whether this occurs in aquatic species is not proven, __so far as I know.__ If
> there IS such an effect, the toxin will be clearly identifiable by chemical
> analysis, and the affect can then be demonstrated by adding the chemical
> substance to water containing the competing plants. The competing plants will
> then exhibit unmistakable symptoms of poisoning.
> 
> Anybody have LOTS of money, to subsidize a Graduate Student and provide the
> necessary lab equipment, etc?  Darn. That is what I thought.  :-(
> 
> Until then, the best we can do is to use proper Scientific analysis, e.g.
> planting tanks identically, with single species, lighting identically, etc.
> Then, add the suspected competing plants, and record the results. No fair
> changing fish load, lighting, water changing, etc. Until then, all we will
> have is "anecdotal" evidence, which is not very useful. :-(
> 
> If you study George and Karen's posts, you will notice that they DO make very
> careful measurements of growth rates, growth conditions, etc., and still
> cannot prove some effects. Scientific studies are NOT easy!!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Jean Olson
> JOlson8590 at AOL_com
> Out in the Boonies, near
> Cambridge, Iowa
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:02:18 -0500
> From: krandall at world_std.com
> Subject: Re:Lighting Info
> 
> Harold G. Walters wrote:
> 
> >With the recent questions about low cost lighting, I though this would be
> >helpful.
>  <snip>
> 
> Excellent post!  You should send this to Erik to be included in the FAQ
> 
> Karen Randall
> Aquatic Gardeners Association
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:19:28 -0500
> From: krombhol at teclink_net (Paul Krombholz)
> Subject: Re:CO2 from Carbon Electrode
> 
> Bryan Forsythe wrote:
> >Paul,
> >
> >For your personal safety, I'd have to recommend not wearing a plastic
> >bag on your head while reading email.  You may find that it will have
> >adverse effects..
> >
> >Sorry, couldn't resist...
> 
> It has adverse effects on my ability to read the email, and so I have a
> tube leading into the bag and I breathe into that.
> 
> Paul Krombholz, in gloomy, damp Jackson, Mississippi.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:02:11 -0500
> From: krandall at world_std.com
> Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1118
> 
> At 03:48 PM 12/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Subject: Plants whilting and Sword deteriorating - Need help
> 
> >     I have had the tank setup for 2 months now.  Its a 25 gal with 2 20W
> >     tubes (triton and Ultra penn plex).  Subrstrate is a combo of kitty
> >     litter (Hartz pH 5 and laterite) with 3" of sand/gravel above.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would do this.  The whole reason Dan says he advises
> the use of kitty litter is to avoid the cost of laterite.  There is no
> benefit to using kitty litter _and_ laterite.  IMO, the pH of this litter
> is lower than I would prefer too.
> 
> >    Tank temp is 82 degrees
> 
> That's higher than it should be unless you are keeping Discus or Rams.  At
> that temp. you will need more light, more trace supplementation and more
> CO2 to maintain good growth.
> 
> > pH 6.7, kH 2, gH 2.  I am using the yeast CO2
> >     injection method.
> 
> >     Several of the Ludwigia have started to deteriorate.  The leaves
> >     thinned out and fell off!!.
> 
> I would suspect the very low pH of the substrate.  Another possibility
> would be copper in the tap water.
> 
> >     The sword has put out new leaves, but
> >     instead of the nice oval shape, they are emergine long and thin with
> >     brownish colored veins visible.
> 
> That sounds like an absolutely normal transition from emersed growth to
> submerged growth.
> 
> >     I am adding iron and trace minerals
> 
> What kind and how often?
> 
> Karen Randall
> Aquatic Gardeners Association
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:02:14 -0500
> From: krandall at world_std.com
> Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1116
> 
> Sorry, I'm catching up with some items I wanted to comment on, but didn't
> have a chance to respond to earlier in the week.
> 
> Subject: Bacterial Bloom Questions
> 
> >During a fit of mental blockage I added too many fish to my planted 90
> >gallon.  I added 6 SAE's and 6 gold barbs to control the algae.  What I
> >forgot was that I was more than doubling the fish load, and, waaalaaa -
> >bacterial bloom.  I have experienced this before and found that it takes
> >about a week for the thing to clear up.  But, it has been over a week and
> >still I find the bacteria doing quite well.  The fish are fine, the algae
> >is dying (yeeeehaaa), and the hobbiest is getting worried.  In taking with
> >various plant people and experienced fish people, I am finding a wierd
> >composition of suggestions.  These range from chemical treatment (not my
> >plan in the least) to waiting.  My questions are the following:
> >
> >1.  Is the bacterial cloudiness the nitrofication bacteria that have become
> >free-floating or is it another bacteria that has bloomed and is feeding on
> >the nutrients in the water (i.e., E. coli, salminilla (humor here)?
> 
> Nitrifying bacteria colonize substrates.  They are not free floating.  The
> bacteria in your water is something different, although I can't tell you
> what kind.  (hey, after years of believing nitrifying bacteria were
> Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter, it looks like that might not be the case)
> 
> >2.  I have increased the temp to 78 F and have stuffed the canister filter
> >with more material for the bacteria to colonize on - what else can be done
> >to decrease the bacteria?
> 
> I'm not sure that increasing the temperature will have any benefit.
> 
> >3.  Some have said to squeeze a sponge, from a "stable" tank, containing
> >colonized bacteria into the tank to help the process - sounds
> >counter-productive to me.  Is this incorrect thinking on my part or will
> >this help?
> 
> Well, it's better to squeeze it into the filter, because where you want to
> build up the bacteria colony.  Even better is to move already colonized
> filter material into your filter.
> 
> >4.  If the bloom does not disappear in another week then what is my next
> >move; i.e., tear the tank down and start over,
> 
> Absolutely not.  You'll just remove all the bacteria they _have_ colonized.
> 
> > massive water changes,
> 
> Can slow the process down, but are sometimes necessary if the fish are
> looking distressed, or if there are measureable ammonia or nitrite readings
> in the tank.
> 
> >particle filtration?
> 
> Won't work.  Bacteria are too small.
> 
> The best medicine is the tincture of time.  It's time to start practicing
> your patience.
> 
> >5.  The exact names (latin) of the bacteria?
> 
> Again, we used to believe that the "good guy" bacteria were Nitrobacter and
> Nitrosomonas.  That may not be the case, as it turns out.
> 
> - ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Heteranthera zosterifolia bloom
> 
> >I fallen a bit behind in the maintenance of my open top tank and have been
> >rewarded with the loveliest blooms on the Heteranthera zosterifolia that has
> >grown to the top.
> 
> Neat!
> 
> >  I'm thinking of letting it remain at the top for a while
> >so I can enjoy these dainty flowers.
> 
> I would.
> 
> > Does anyone know if allowing this bloom
> >to continue will lessen the vigor of these plants?
> 
> I haven't ever flowered this plant, but I doubt it.  I've never lost any
> other aquarium plant by allowing it to bloom.
> 
> >BTW: This is my first open top tank (a 125 gallon).  About a week ago I
> >experienced the downside when I found my missing seventh SAE on the floor
> >behind the tank. Tonight, however, I discovered that I still have seven SAEs
> >(at least).  Apparently, they spawned.  It must have been some time ago
> >since the young SAE I saw was almost an inch long.  Wish I had noticed; I'd
> >have put sponges over the filter intakes at least.
> 
> Extra neat!
> 
> Karen Randall
> Aquatic Gardeners Association
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:03:08 +0800
> From: "Chiao Lun" <ccl at cheerful_com>
> Subject: Goat Milk Tablets as fertilizer
> 
> Is it possible?? Is there any way to get rid of the fat??
> 
> I have a surplus of consumer grade Goats milk tablets they contain  (per
> 100g) :
> 
> Protein            7.1g
> 
> Fat  : (             8.5g
> 
> Calcium        248mg
> 
> Iron                 0.09mg
> 
> Vit. A                108mcg
> 
> Vit. B1            0.01mg
> 
> Vit B2             0.3mg
> 
> Sodium            80mg
> 
> Potassium        464mg
> 
> ICQ # 3262214
> e-mail : ccl at cheerful_com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 08:39:48 -0800
> From: MP <pearlsco at u_washington.edu>
> Subject: PMDD trade for live food...
> 
> Anyone interested in a trade of one-liters worth of PMDD for a vinegar
> eel starter culture or another small freshwater surviving live food
> (besides daphnia)?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mark
> - ------
> pearlsco at u_washington.edu
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:19:55 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill at Rt66_com>
> Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom
> 
> >
> > > Back in the bad old days, me and Ugh, the cave man, would stop feeding.
> > > Usually it would clear up by itself in a few (2-5) days.
> > - - --
> > Dave Gomberg                            gomberg at wcf_com
> > FormMaestro                                     http://www.wcf.com
> >
> >
> > Funny thing is that I have not been feeding because of the algae problem
> > that I have.  I have only fed the fish twice in a month period.
> >
> > Any other resons?.?.
> >
> 
> I've noticed at the outset of a green water bloom that the water initially
> appears cloudy white rather than green.  The color doesn't turn green
> until the cloud gets thicker.
> 
> Is it possible that your cloudy water is the start of an algae bloom,
> poised to turn into green water when conditions are right?  You could keep
> the lights off for a couple days to see if it goes away.
> 
> Roger Miller
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:38:26 -0600
> From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
> Subject: aquatic carnivores
> 
> FORWARDED MESSAGE:
> 
> >From: "quintn" <quintn at oeonline_com>
> >To: <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
> >Subject: aquatic carnivores
> >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:18:01 -0500
> >
> >can someone help?
> >I'm looking for carn. aquatic plants- aldrovara or utricularia.
> >
> >If you have any availible for sale, please email me privately.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:36:54 -0600
> From: Cynthia S Powers <cyn at metronet_com>
> Subject: root gravatrophism
> 
> FORWARDED MESSAGE:
> 
> >Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 15:50:02 -0500
> >From: Sam Hakim <hakims at clam_rutgers.edu>
> >To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> >Subject: root gravatrophism
> >
> >I was wondering if you have any iformation that would help me in my
> >research concerning root gravatrophism.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:44:39 -0500 (EST)
> From: Earle Hamilton <ehami at sunny_ncmc.cc.mi.us>
> Subject: Fishmas list - heater
> 
> Those of you that take AFM may have read my article on aquarium heaters.
> At the end of the article I described my "ideal" heater which would have
> a variable wattage.  A week ago I was contacted by some folks who had
> read the article and they sent me a prototype for evaluation.  At the
> risk of sounding like their PR dept let me just say if you want the
> ultimate aquarium heater, this is it.  It holds the temp to within 0.1
> degree F (which of course is beyond any value that the fish require).
> What is more important is that it will work for any size tank. I tested
> their heater (200 watts) in a two gallon tank and it reduces wattage as
> the tank temperature approaches the set point.
> 
> The element is encased in metal that is safe for marine tanks.  The case
> acts as a tank ground probe so you save at least $15 on buying a ground
> probe.  Being solid state there are no bimetal strips or contact points.
> There is a separate temperature sensor.  The whole ball of wax can be had
> for about $65 including shipping.  Call 1-800-215-2936.  Temzone inc.
> 
> George, even you who has everything doesn't have one of these things.
> For the person who has everything or thinks they do, the Temzone variable
> watt heater would make a great stocking stuffer.
> 
> - --Earle Hamilton from northern Michigan where coral once grew
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:45:51 -0500
> From: "Peter W O'Dwyer jnr" <odwyerpw at capital_net>
> Subject: RE:Fishmas
> 
> - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD0178.535DC740
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> George & Erik,
> Stop inhaling the contents of those Tetra CO2 Cartridges (all 7oz) before posting to the APD.
> Peter O'Dwyer
> odwyerpw at capital_net
> 
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> 
> - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD0178.535DC740--
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:18:59 +0800 (SGT)
> From: Casey Huang <yhplsing at singnet_com.sg>
> Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom
> 
> Hi Matthew,
> 
> Maybe the nitrification bacteria or some other group of bacteria
> normally feeding on organic wastes were starved to death because
> of sudden cut off of available nutrients. These dead bacteria are
> what causing the cloudy water condition or another group of bacteria feeding
> on the dead bacteria. Just guessing.
> 
> In future, could you please don't leave out any detail because the
> answers you get might be completely off or incorrect and might
> embarrass the person trying to help by responding to your post,
> making him / her looking like a fool, if one is not discerning.
> 
> Regards
> Casey Huang
> 
> yhplsing at singnet_com.sg
> 
> >
> >
> >Funny thing is that I have not been feeding because of the algae problem
> >that I have.  I have only fed the fish twice in a month period.
> >
> >Any other resons?.?.
> >
> >__________________________________________________________
> >Matthew T. Mason                              "What counts is not
> >Doctoral Student                                    necessarily the size of
> >The Ohio State University                     the dog in the fight,
> >Department of Molecular Genetics        but the size of the
> >mason.163 at osu_edu                            fight in the dog."
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Aquatic Plants Digest V2 #1119
> *************************************
> 
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