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Re: to 116155

> Aquatic Plants Digest      Wednesday, 19 March 1997      Volume 02 : Number 590
> From: User116155 at aol_com
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:22:10 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: CO2 and water stability
To USER16155 who made comments.
> >Somewhere there is an unwritten book of things you should and
> >shouldn't do to have a successful aquarium. I quite often enjoy not
> >following these rules. Partly, I do it because I think somebody needs
> >to, partly because it's usually cheaper or more practical, and partly
> >because I enjoy swimming against the current.
> Just because you like swimming against the current doesn't mean we >should follow in your footsteps.  
I never suggested you should follow my footsteps. In fact I go out of my
way to suggest there is nothing wrong with the more typical methods
offered in most books, TAG, or APD. Until my post this morning, the only
reason I have ever posted here is to defend my position when it was
questioned here by someone else first. 
>Why do you use kitty litter as a substrate?  What is Osmocote and how >do you use it?
  I use kitty litter because it works well as a cheap substitute for
laterite. I advocate Osmocote because its a time release fertilizer I
add to the kitty litter when I set up. I have now gone about a year
without adding any additional fertilizer. Some folks might like learn
about something new. 
Keep in mind, I have not suggested that anyone here should use it. 

> >Recently, because of many non-standard methods I use and advocate on
> >my web page, I have come up with a new problem. The problem is one of
> >the subscribers in this newsletter by the name of John (he won't use > >his last name}.
> You should stop and
> think for a moment and ask yourself "Why are my methods considered
> non-standard"?  Could it be that they or similar methods have been tried
> before and were not as successful or as practical as other methods?  If they were tried, I have not seen anybody make claims that they didn't work. You can hardly be more practical than using kitty litter, no heaters or CO injection.

> If you don't want people emailing you to ask questions and share their
> experiences then you should take off that notice on your web page.  It's the
> one that says "To ask questions or share your experience, send me an e-mail".
>  If you don't then you shouldn't complain.  I don't think the list is a place
> for personal vendettas and especially one that doesn't seem to have
> originated here.
I enjoy answering e-mails(except John ?, after about the 4th or 5th
time), in fact I average about 4 responses a day {often long ones).
Personal vendetta is a little strong. After going around in circles with
"John ?" (actually a long story), I decided to take his advice. His
advice was to post our differences, I suspect the reason was to have the
scientific  minds here destroy my methods. At first I rejected his
notion to post, but after more thought I decide why not, perhaps others
would find it interesting.
> >Besides the kitty litter substrate, I don't inject CO2. Nothing wrong
> >with adding it, but I would have to buy sugar in 50 lb. bags to get all
> >my tanks hooked up to this. I also don't like the thought of keeping up
> >with them, looking at there disgusting contents, or putting up with my
> >wife whos limits I have already taken to the limit with my aquariums.
> Thanks to this list I found out just what a big difference CO2 can make.  I
> mix sugar water yeast and baking soda and it isn't disgusting at any stage.
>  It's not hard to keep up with.
I have about 50 plant tanks, would you like to be my CO2 caretaker?
  It lasts me a good 4 weeks.  I wouldn''t say
> that's such a big chore.
I used to use it to, but I just didn't like messing with it. Nor did I
see much improvement. The only reason I brought it up, is because it
would be easy reading the posts in APD, to think it's a must for good
plant growth. Perhaps if you have hard, high pH water it is a must, but
in soft acid water it is not.   
> >I believe it was Andrew who did a great job of explaining that even in
> >strong light extra CO2 is not needed.
> Once you have strong light I think CO2 becomes the limiting factor.  I say
> this after  putting on my empiricist hat.
Limiting factor of what? If you mean growth, I already said it slows it
down but it sure doesn't stop it. If you mean total absences of CO2 it
sure will be the limiting factor. I get good growth conseving the CO2
produced in the aquaium by the livestock.
> >The other debates concern water stability. In this case I may also be
> >in disagreement with Andrew as well as John.
> >I naturally get substantial pH swings in my low-tech methods. 6.2 in
> >the morning to 6.8 in late aft., give or take a little on both ends. I like
> to see these >swings because I consider it a quick sign thay I am
> >getting good CO2 production.
> That's a substantial pH shift in my eyes.  If you would add CO2 I don't think
> you would get the swing in pH that you get now.
I agree with that, but my point is that fluxuation is not a big deal if
done slowly. Mother nature does it all the time. 
> >I also don't use heaters. Nothing against them, but just don't think
> >water temperature stability is a big deal, unless you are into
> >propagating specific fish or plants.
> You do have non-standard methods.  I think I can safely say that most of us keep fish that need temperature stability.
I know I have non-standard methods. Thats why I posted, I thought some
might find it interesting. I suspect your right about most owning
heaters, my point was on what basis do you claim temperature stability
is a must. It sure isn't in nature.  
> >I still get good growth on tropical plants like swords (but will admit it
> might be faster >with more heat, but I'm in no hurry) and on my fish farm we
> kept all kinds of fish
> >with out heaters and it gets quite cold in Fl.  I have one tank with a very
> hot halogen >bulb that gives me about a 6-8 deg. temp. flux  over 12 hrs. The
> point is, both plants >and fish can take a great deal of
> >change if done slow enough.

>That doesn't sound like something a responsible tropical fish farmer would do.
Obviously you know little about fish farms. Most of the fish are raised
in dirt ponds. When I was getting out of that business many farmers were
digging ponds 100' X 20' and often between 15' and 20' feet deep.
What size heater would you suggest they buy for each pond? 
  How cold did it get?
I got a thin layer of ice on the ponds twice. I was recently talking to
a farmer in Fla.  His water temp. on the surface got over a 105 deg. It
hurt his business because he couldn't trap the fish to sell. He never
mentioned any problems about the fish health. 
  I don't think 12 hours is enough time for a 6-8
> degree change.
Your entitled to your opinion, but I got proof if you want to check it
By the way, your not John are you? I noticed you didn't have a name
either, unless its #116155.
Dan Quackenbush.