Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #344

 Aquatic-Plants-Owner <Aquatic-Plants-Owner at ActWin_com> writes:

>Aquatic Plants Digest       Monday, 18 March 1996       Volume 01 : Number

>In this issue:

>	Re: More on quality control
>	answering newbie questions
>	Re: Isoetes
>	Re: Pencilfish
>	Re:  UGF Heating Alternative
>	New book
>	goof
>	Re: Books, Phosphate, UG Heating
>	Re: adding nitrates
>	Re:Vita-B, Quillwort and increasing KH
>	Sea Kelp
>	WWW sites for plants photos
>	LAWSHF drops
>	re: Slow Flow UGF
>	Allergies from aquatic plants?

>See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
>Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.


>From: ac554 at freenet_carleton.ca (David Whittaker)
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:04:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: More on quality control

>Dave Gomberg writes....

>>There was a journal on computer performance.  To get it, you had to
>>write an acceptable article.   What if we combine that idea with the
>>idea of gating and let "qualified" writers join and post to APD and
>>gate it one way to the news group (so everyone can read it).  If you
>>want to subscribe to APD, you must submit an article or question
>>answer to the editor.  If she says yes, you are in.  If he says no,
>>there is some appeal board.  It is elitist, but justly so, I think. 
>>Any thoughts?

>Maybe Dr. Dave could set an exam for each and every APD subscriber.
>It could be called APSAT. A pass you get to post; a failure earns
>you a stint in the doc's summer school. That would be a tough

>- --
>Dave Whittaker                       ac554 at FreeNet_Carleton.CA
>Gloucester, Ontario                  dwhitt at magmacom_com


>From: "Thomas Narten" <narten at VNET_IBM.COM>
>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:09:50 -0500
>Subject: answering newbie questions


>If you are tired of answering the same question 1000 times, put it in
>a FAQ.  What does FAQ stand for? If a question gets asked 1000 times,
>it needs to be in the FAQ. Then when one of these questions comes
>along, there are only two possibities: a) quote from the FAQ (nicely,
>preferably), or b) revise the FAQ so that next time the question will
>be answered.

>There is a plant FAQ. With a bit of love and attention, I'm sure it
>could evolve into something even better. I'm sure the FAQ maintainers
>would welcome new blood and enthusiasm.



>From: Elizabeth Worobel <eworobe at cc_UManitoba.CA>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:13:14 -0600 (CST)
>Subject: Re: Isoetes

>Isoetes is an interesting plant. First, its a fern with the sporangia 
>located at the base of the leaves. Second, Isoetes get much of their CO2 
>the sediment through the roots. To do this they have a large root:shoot 
>ratio and lots of aerenchyma. Third, Isoetes is a CAM plant which means 
>that it can fix CO2 at night by forming C4 acids and then reduce the CO2 
>in the following light period. Isoetes is usually found in acidic lakes 
>or vernal pools that are extremely carbon limited.
>To successfully grow the plant you need acidic water, low light and a 
>substrate which is enriched with either clay or some soil to supply CO2 
>to the roots. At our local university Isoetes has been grown for years in 
>a small 10g aquarium with no overhead lights (its in a dark corner of the 
>greenhouse) and a soil/sand substrate. Every year or so the greenhouse 
>operator throws in a handful of potting soil to renew the sediment. The 
>plants are in great shape. Having said that, Ive tried at home to grow 
>the same plant and have had no success ... my light is much higher, I 
>have an alkaline pH, and 2 inches of plain gravel over my soil substrate. 

>Good luck, Dr. dave


>From: cbay at jeppesen_com (Charlie Bay)
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:43:39 -0700 (MST)
>Subject: Re: Pencilfish

>> > I recently had an aquarium fish retailer suggest pencil fish to 
>> > Has anyone out there heard of this? I decided to get three of th
>> > posted on my experience.
>> From: krandall at world_std.com (Karen A Randall)
>> I keep 3 species of Pencils in 2 tanks.  They're very attractive 
>> little fish, but I've never seen them eat much algae.  

>I have a school of seven pencil fish in my 180 gallon planted
>tank.  They are sensitive and very docile.  I know mine have
>a preference for micro-pellets, and they have very small mouths.
>They're great for plant tanks, moving in and out of vegetation in
>the upper-half and surface; but you must have a very 
>non-aggressive community.  

>What do you feed yours, Karen?  I've never seen mine eat algae

>- --charley
>cbay at jeppesen_com           Fort Collins, CO USA


>From: George Booth <booth at hpmtlgb1_lvld.hp.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:17:09 -0700
>Subject: Re:  UGF Heating Alternative

>> From: "Mark A. Bailey" <mbailey at crosslink_net>
>> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 19:29:17 -0800
>> A couple of things:
>> a. Since the PVC IS a good insulator, little heat would be lost during it's
>>    travel.  Therefore, the water in the tube could be maintained at a 
>>    relatively constant temperature.

>... and not much heat would be transferred to the substrate. What was
>your point? 

>> b. If the PVC is not a great insulator, the heat transferred out of the
>>    tube, would be proportional to the temperature difference.  If the 
>>    first foot were hot for some reason, less heat would be transferred,
>>    saving the heat for the next foot.  This transient behavior
>>    will eventually even out, again keeping the temperature in the tube
>>    relatively constant.

>You have that just a little backwards.  The greater the difference in heat,
>the faster the heat transfer.  What you are saying is that food in the
>regular part of a refrigerator would get colder faster than food in
>the freezer.  I don't think so. 

>> Recently, I was reading an article (unfortunately I cannot find
>> the reference) where the author did this setup.

>It was in AFM last year and the author, Earle Hamilton, is/was on this
>mailing list. 

>George Booth


>From: George Booth <booth at hpmtlgb1_lvld.hp.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:50:31 -0700
>Subject: New book

>> From: Pat Bowerman <bowerman at rog_ar.ispnet.com>
>>      Now for the good stuff, have any of our experts ever thought of
>> authoring a book on our hobby? I think that we would all agree that
>> there is a shortage of really good, beautifully illustrated books on
>> aquarium plants.  

>You haven't looked hard enough.

>> I would buy it. (providing you kept it affordable)

>Ah, always a catch :-).

>> Also, I would like to see an American viewpoint on the subject. Not
>> that I have anything against our German and Japanese friends, but I
>> don't believe that they are the only ones qualified to write books on
>> the subject. My personal preference would be an illustrated plant
>> identification book with a small how-to section.

>I have been thinking about this for quite a while.  I have receieved
>much positive feedback on my SST series (net postings, Krib archives,
>TAG series, AFM series) and have sold about 100 copies of a
>photocopied version of it.  

>Based on my experience, the market has a plethora of books with
>pretty pictures and IDs (the Dennerle ad/book is THE best, IMHO).
>What is really needed is an in-depth "How To" book.  This is what I
>receive the most comments on - "Finally, a step by step procedure on
>how to do this".  "The Optimum Aquarium" comes close but stops just
>short, probably so you will buy their products (which also fall short
>since the instruction sheets are a bit :-) cryptic). 

>I currently have about 7 megabytes of stuff on disk that just needs "a
>little formatting" for a book.  Too bad I already have a job and three
>hobbies ...

>PS: How much would you pay for a book?


>From: George Booth <booth at hpmtlgb1_lvld.hp.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:01:36 -0700
>Subject: goof

>> From: User645273 at aol_com
>> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 23:15:21 -0500
>> I apologize.  I goofed on Shaji's name.  No hard feelings (I hope!)

>Dear User645273,

>Maybe I'm not in tune with the CyberAge yet, but I prefer to chat with
>people, not computer accounts.  Do you have a name? 

>George Booth

>PS: I know this should have been via e-mail, but it has happened so
>much I thought a general message may be appropriate. 


>From: Kevin Conlin <kcconlin at cae_ca>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:25:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: Books, Phosphate, UG Heating

>Karen Randall wrote:

>> I have OFTEN seen cyanobacteria present even with high nitrate 
>> levels.

>Paul and I find that green algae predominates when nitrates are
>available.  However, cyanobacteria seem to thrive where nothing
>else can; if nitrates exceed 200ppm, or something else is killing
>green algae (perhaps the copper in your local water?), then the
>balance might shift back to the cyanobacteria.  I think that traces
>of cyanobacteria are always present in a tank, but that when large
>quantities of the stuff are coating everything (as seems to be the
>case with Mr. Maladorno's tank), it's an indication that the phosphate
>levels are elevated but the nitrate levels are not.

>> In a tank 
>> containing Discus, I suspect that the possibility of nitrogen 
>> deficiency is somewhere between slim and none.

>In a tank full of well-fed discus, the total amount of nitrogen
>entering the system is quite high, but the amount of phosphate is even
>higher.  Therefore, the plants run out of nitrogen (or K or trace
>elements) before they run out of phosphate, and the free phosphate is
>what's making the algae grow.  It follows that you need to add extra
>nutrients to help the plants consume the extra phosphate.  That's our
>hypothesis anyway.  More details are found in our paper, which you're
>(hopefully) reading "as we speak".  Of course, the whole approach falls
>apart if you don't have enough light to make use of all the available
>phosphate, which can happen if you use phosphate buffers or get a little
>carried away with the Pond Tabs.

>> My tanks show _no_ measureable nitrate (low range test kit) and I 
>> have tremendous grow with little algae.

>If you're adding exactly (or nearly so) the amount of N required by your
>plants to consume all the available P, you'll get good plant growth
>with very little algae, and nitrates will be unmeasurable.  Paul and
>I recommend a slight excess of nitrates to ensure that nitrates will
>never be the factor limiting plant growth.

>Yes, Paul and I are sticking our necks out by recommending that
>nitrates sometimes need to be added to a tank.  Paul needs a shave

>> (none on the plants, some 
>> on the glass that is easily removed at water change time) IMO 
>> recommending a nitrate level of 10ppm is asking for trouble.

>I only recommend 10ppm because the first level on my test kit is
>20ppm.  If you have a better test kit, 5ppm should be plenty.
>I've pushed my nitrates up to 30ppm (accidentally) without getting
>extra algae.

>> Some 
>> people, with other parameters just right, get away with it, but 
>> I'm fairly certain that it doesn't contribute to good plant growth 
>> as long as ammonium is available, and it _can_ cause algae 
>> problems.

>Nitrate by itself can't cause algae problems.  You need P (and K and
>micronutrients) too.

>> That's one reason that I wouldn't call the DIY fertilizer "poor 
>> man's Dupla drops"... Dupla drops do _not_ contain nitrate.

>You pay all that money for Dupla drops, and they don't even give you
>nitrate?  I'd take them back for a refund.

>How about Poor Man's Improved Dupla Drops?
>- --
>Kevin Conlin   kcconlin at cae_ca   "We're Canadians.  We HAVE to be polite"
>Finger as332 at freenet_carleton.ca for PGP public key.


>From: Kevin Conlin <kcconlin at cae_ca>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:44:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: adding nitrates

>On Friday, 15 March 1996, Neil Frank wrote:

>> [from Karen Randall]
>> >That's one reason that I wouldn't call the DIY fertilizer "poor 
>> >man's Dupla drops"... Dupla drops do _not_ contain nitrate.
>> >
>> How about "lazy aquarist who starves his fish drops"

>No one who's ever seen me feed my fish would ever accuse me of starving
>them.  I've got 6 cardinals, 10 hatchetfish, 5 pencil fish, 4 gouramis,
>5 African butterfly cichlids, 1 monster Anostomus, 3 farlowellas,
>2 otos, 1 medium pleco, 4 ginormous bleeding hearts, 1 clown pleco, one
>spotted raphael, 1 serpae tetra, and God knows what else in there, and
>they're all fat.  I feed lots of rich frozen bloodworms and tons of
>freeze-dried flakes.

>And now, the punch line:

>  I need to add nitrates precisely because I feed so much. 
>- --
>Kevin Conlin   kcconlin at cae_ca   "We're Canadians.  We HAVE to be polite"
>Finger as332 at freenet_carleton.ca for PGP public key.


>From: krombhol at felix_TECLink.Net (Paul Krombholz)
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:43:12 -0600
>Subject: Re:Vita-B, Quillwort and increasing KH

>Neil Schneider wrote, March 17:
>>The incredients are basicly the following: Alpha Napthalene Acetic Acid
>>(.12%)   >Zinc, expressed as metallic - derived from sulfate (.10%)
>>Iron, expressed as
>>metallic - derived from sulfate (.10%),   Mangenese, expressed as metallic -
>>derived from sulfate (.10%),   Ethylene Dianime Tetraacetic Acid (2.00%),
>>Thiamine Hydrachloride - Viatimin B1 (.20%) (some brands don't contain
>>vitamin B1).  The bottle I have in front of me is sold under the brand name
>>Vita-B, [Neil Schneider]

>I don't know what the alpha napthalene acetic acid is for, unless it is an
>anitfungal or antibacterial agent.   and I don't think that the vitamin B1
>is of any use to aquatic plants.  I wouldn't worry about the sulfate.
>After all, plants need sulfur, usually absorbed as sulfate, as a

>Glenn McGregor asked about growing quillwort, March 17

>I had an Isoetes species for about a year, and it seemed easy to mantain,
>but propagating it is not easy.  See the article about native New Zealand
>aquatic plants in the current issue of The Aquatic Gardener, Vol. 9, No. 1,
>if you can get it.  It includes a discussion of several quillworts.  Erik
>Olson used to have this article on the Krib, but I couldn't find it, just

>>Didi Soichin was concerned about the gravel increasing the KH. March 17.

>Hardware stores sell "muriatic acid" which is really hydrochloric acid.  It
>is, of course, a lot stronger than vinegar.  I suggest that you buy some of
>that and soak your suspect gravel in it.  It should remove any limestone
>contaminants.  If the gravel is entirely limestone, you will find that out,
>also, because it will do a lot of foaming.  There is no way gravel can
>increase KH after having been soaked in an acid this strong.  Rinse well!

>Paul Krombholz                  Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS  39174

>I should be grading lab reports and exams!


>From: Hextek at aol_com
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:52:25 -0500
>Subject: Sea Kelp

>I have been trying to find the Microplex brand name micronutrient without
>success locally.  I have come across a product called Floral Micro by General
>Hydroponics but it has 5% nitrogen and calcium, which I think are two
>undesirables.  It also has on average only 10% of the trace elements
>Microplex has.  The stuff costs $10/pint.  Another product is sea kelp by a
>company called MaxiCrop.  Has anyone ever tried this?  There is no break down
>of trace elements just 'sea kelp'.  This stuff is about $9/quart and is
>dilutted 2 tablespoons/gal.  The hydroponics people claim this stuff works
>the best.  The question is, will something in there nuke my fish?

>By the way, this is the most informative list on aquarium plants and I think
>it deserves preservation for both the expert and novice.  We need to get the
>novices to look at the archives for basic questions.

>Rich, Tucson  AZ   || hextek at aol_com ||


>From: Jorge Braz <qjpcbraz at cc_fc.ul.pt>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:11:46 -0500
>Subject: WWW sites for plants photos

>        Can anybody tell me of good places to see some photos that help me
>identify the plants. Thank you very much.

>                                Jorge Braz


>From: "David W. Webb" <dwebb at ti_com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:54:19 -0800
>Subject: LAWSHF drops

>>> >That's one reason that I wouldn't call the DIY fertilizer "poor
>>> >man's Dupla drops"... Dupla drops do _not_ contain nitrate.
>>> How about "lazy aquarist who starves his fish drops"
>>That works, except LAWSHFD is a pretty long handle ;-)

>As a "LAWSHF", I'd like to say that since I set up my 55g tank, my apple
>snails have laid eggs 5 times and my platies have dropped so many babies that
>I have no hope of counting them.  The only type of food I've added to the
>tank is top-off water, Dupla 24 drops, a few AP plant tabs, and a little
>Tetra FloraPride (in the nutrient injection system).

>I consider my aquariums as indoor ponds now, and the combined low maintenance
>and attractive looks make them well worth the initial setup effort.

>I may soon move some of my ottos to the 55g and maybe get a few more ghost
>shrimp to add there as well (ghost shrimp and apple snails seem to be a good

>David W. Webb
>Enterprise Computing Provisioning
>Texas Instruments Inc. Dallas, TX USA
>(214) 575-3443 (voice)  MSGID:       DAWB
>(214) 575-4853 (fax)    Internet:    dwebb at ti_com
>(214) 581-2380 (pager)  Text Pager:  pgr at ti_com Subj:PAGE:David Webb


>From: "David W. Webb" <dwebb at ti_com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:42:21 -0800
>Subject: re: Slow Flow UGF

>>However, I can think of 2 drawbacks of using a slow flow UGF (as described
>>1.      all substrate MAY become aerobic.
>>2.      soil/loam/vermiculite/whatever substrate cannot be used
>>because it has a tendency to cloud the water.

>I have what could be considered a slow substrate flow system in both of my
>tanks and would have to disagree.  In both cases, flow is basically
>negligable, and can be measured in drops per minute.  This isn't enough flow
>to upset much of anything or to cause the substrate to be completely aerobic.
> It does promote substrate mixing, with can assist in dispersing sulfate

>I have a sand/vermiculite substrate in each of my tanks and find the
>vermiculite to very good about leaving the water unclouded, even when I pull
>up a plant.  Yes, I do get a small eruption of vermiculite flakes, but they
>settle back out within a few minutes.  If given the time, they will either
>settle into my sand, or they will eventually settle out in my settling tank.

>David W. Webb
>Enterprise Computing Provisioning
>Texas Instruments Inc. Dallas, TX USA
>(214) 575-3443 (voice)  MSGID:       DAWB
>(214) 575-4853 (fax)    Internet:    dwebb at ti_com
>(214) 581-2380 (pager)  Text Pager:  pgr at ti_com Subj:PAGE:David Webb


>From: schmaus at drmail_dr.att.com (SchmausJ)
>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:49:39 -0700
>Subject: Allergies from aquatic plants?

>	Fellow Aquatic Plant lovers,

>	Has anybody ever had allergic reactions from their plant tank?
>	Over the last two weeks I've started getting asthma attacks whenever
>	I open the tank or, now, even go into the basement.

>	My giant val just recently produced several flowers, which is the
>	only thing that's changed in the tank over the last two weeks.  I
>	removed all of them I could find.  I am vigorously hoping that's
>	the source of the pollen!  Otherwise I'll have to move out, or
>	get rid of the tank!

>	SO, has anybody ever heard of allergic reactions to aquatic plants?

>	I've got:

>		Anubias barteri, "normal" and nana varieties.
>			Some of these have new blooms.  I hope it's not
>			these, since I rather like them.

>		Myriophyllum (I think that's what it is -- a sprig of it
>			rode in with the bunch of plants I bought from
>			George a few months back)  No visible flowers.

>		Ludwigia.		No visible flowers
>		Corkscrew Val.		No visible flowers
>		Echinodorus Tenellus	No visible flowers
>		Java Fern	<-- it's got spores, too!
>		Giant Val		No flowers since I clipped them.
>		Bacopa			No visible flowers

>	Any ideas?  Are any of these known to be "aquatic ragweed"?

>	Thanks,

>	John


>End of Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #344

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 Didi Soichin
 didi at wwnet_com
 Westland, MI, USA