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Sent:     08 Mar 1996 01:13:25
From:"owner-aquatic-plants at actwin_com" <Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com>
To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
Subject:   Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #309
Reply-to: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
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Aquatic Plants Digest       Thursday, 7 March 1996       Volume 01 : Number 309

In this issue:

	Chroma 50
	Practical Fishkeeping Mag
	iron chloride
	electric current flow
	Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #304
	Welcome to aquatic-plants
	Re: Heating Cables & electricity

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.


From: john vazqueztell <bulb1 at i-2000_com>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 16:08:30 -0400
Subject: Chroma 50

Saw your inquiry and the response you had.

Chroma 50 is a General Electric Brand Name.  We can supply these or any number of equivalents.

Please feel free to call us Toll  Free at 1 800 BEST BULB and ask for Matt Collins who is our
product expert.  We also carry a full line of lamps for aquarium use (fish or other) as well
as color corrected full spectrum lamps.


John Roberts
Marketing Manager


From: George Booth <booth at hpmtlgb1_lvld.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:41:25 -0700
Subject: Practical Fishkeeping Mag

> Hardjono reminded us that the Dec 95 issue of Practical Fishkeeping
> magazine has a picture of THE shrimp many of us are looking for.  Does
> anyone know if this UK magazine is available in the US?  How about
> international subscriptions?

I have found it at the local Barnes and Noble bookstore. 

George "Hey - Let's move to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants now!"


From: eis at alto1_altonet.com (Paul Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:57:13 -0800
Subject: iron chloride

iron chloride

To precipitate copper:

> (Boston?) area water. Why don't you try to remove (reduce) it?? You
> can just add a drop of iron chloride. You have to be carefull th
> because in this process hydrogen carbonate is consumed and this
> lead to a fall of Ph value (on overdose only).  As far as I can

Ferrous-cloride, yes I bought five gallons of the stuff over 20 years ago
for etching circuit boards and I've been hanging onto the remaining two
gallons for years because I don't want to dump it down the drain (It's not
used in the PC board business any more). If any body wants to trade some
plants for FeCl drop a line.


Paul Nicholson              Electronic Imaging Systems, Inc.
eis at altonet_com             5148 Commerce Avenue, Unit F
TEL 805 532 1068            Moorpark, CA 93021 U.S.A.
FAX 805 532 1065


From: eis at alto1_altonet.com (Paul Nicholson)
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:57:16 -0800
Subject: electric current flow

KB Koh wrote

Electric current actually take the path of least resistance. If one of your
several items has a short circuit to ground, all the current will flow there and
none to the rest of your items. The sum of current to all items is equal to the
input current. Something got to do with Kirchoff(sp?) Law.

Nope, electric current takes all paths in inverse proportion to their
resistance, to oversimplify "Most of the electric current takes the path of
least resistance". It's the currrent that does not go through the ground
wire that you need to be concerned with.



From: aquatic-plants-owner at hortus_bc.ca
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 03:39:00 PST
Subject: Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #304

Aquatic-Plants-Owner at ActWin_com

Aquatic Plants Digest      Wednesday, 6 March 1996      Volume 01 : Number 304

In this issue:

       Re: Aponogeton Care
       Here...but not.
       Re: Filtration for 29 gal planted tank
       Re: Whisper wet/dry
       Re: Plants and Ammonia
       RE>Wood and Singapore Shrimp
       Re: Filtration for 29 gal planted tank
       Aquaclear vs Whisper
       Need Rotala macaranda help
       Sandpoint substrate heating
       Re: Questions
       Cultivation of Glossostigma
       Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #301
       How to Plant a NANA

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stephen.Pushak at saudan_HAC.COM
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 13:09:10 PST
Subject: Re: Aponogeton Care

> From: User275806 at aol_com
> Subject: Question - Aponogeton Care
> How should these plants be cared for?  There is a time when they go dormant
> isn't there? When they go dormant, I heard that they should be taken out of
> the aquarium and placed in a pot containing soil and left out of the water
> for a period of time.  Any help or tips are appreciated.  Jeff

The most common (in stores) Aponogeton is the A. crispus hybrid which
does not seem to have a significant dormant cycle. Another common one
is the Madagascar lace plant (a. madagascariensis) which unfortunately
does go dormant. Some lace plants will spontaneously regenerate on
their own without intervention, perhaps triggered by water temperature,
water purity or other chemical factors. The best advice seems to be to
give them optimal growing conditions during the active cycle to ensure
an adequate reserve of stored energy in the tubercle for the dormant
season. It has been suggested that you could trigger the regrowth
phase by removing the plants to a refrigerator for a few weeks but I have
not yet heard of someone who has tried this. Anyone who has care to share
their results?

Another idea is the use of diluted Giberillic Acid (GA3) (which Charlie
Bay thinks is a growth inhibitor, see the APD 1-95 for 27 of November,
1995) which has been used to trigger flowering of emersed Crypts
and was covered in TAG  Vol 8 No. 5 (Sep-Oct 95).

I have a suspicion that A. mad. is not able to compete well in a
densely populated tank of assorted, highly competitive aquatic plants.
It might do much better in a specialized tank with other Apononogetons
and perhaps Crypts. Ideally, you should be able to lower the temperature
of the tank for about a month to 50 to 60 Fahrenheit. This would
preclude the use of most tropical fish. I would recommend the use of
a soil substrate of no more than 20% organic matter covered by a
layer of sand, the use of CO2 fertilization, moderately strong lighting
and regular nutrient supplements. Solid fertilizer tablets in the soil
may be beneficial too. Precautions need to be taken to prevent
infestation with fur or hair algae. Tank and plants should probably
be sterilized with a bleach solution.

Steve Pushak           spush at hcsd_hac.com      Vancouver BC

- ------------------------------

From: cbay at jeppesen_com (Charlie Bay)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:46:06 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Here...but not.

NOTE:  Please let this through, as a professional notification to

(If this gets through, it will be a miracle.)

I am reading the Aquatic Plants List, but the editorial discretion
in review of all outgoing e-mail won't allow me to respond to
anything.  I won't share my opinion at this time.

So, you can catch me direct at cbay at jeppesen_com, but I may
or may not be able to respond to you.

Telephone (303)799-9090, extension 4925.

- - --charley bay                Fort Collins, Colorado USA
cbay at jeppesen_com

- ------------------------------

From: Ellistonk at aol_com
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:51:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Filtration for 29 gal planted tank

Subject: HOT Magnums and CO2 injection

Well, this is the first time I've participated in this group, I hope I don't
do something that won't get me invited back!

> - -HOT Magnum; to which I might try to add a Eheim surface extractor.
> What concerns me is that it is rated at 250 gal/hr (though I think
> that is through empty box) and I might end up with too much water
> movement. I also have in mind using the Bio-Wheel adaptor (a tee) to
> split the outflow in two, one just above the bottom and the other one
> at the opposite end of the tank just below the surface, both slightly
> angled towards the front. Also, does anybody have any experience
> injecting CO2 in a HOT Magnum ? I'm concerned about the vapor lock
> possibility, like in the Fluvals.

I've been using two HOT Magnums on my planted 90G for a couple years now and
am very pleased with them. As long as the water level is high enough to cover
the water return tubes, they are virtually silent and do not agitate the
water surface. I don't inject the CO2 directly into the Magnums. I have a
diffuser placed under the intake of one, and about half the CO2 gets sucked
in where I assume some of it gets absorbed into the water, the rest gets
mixed in and distributed throughout the tank. The other half of the CO2
floats upwards, and gets kicked back down into the water from the return
tube. Some CO2 escapes directly to the surface. HOT magnums are great at "off
gassing" any excess air/CO2 that collects in the filter, and I've never had a
problem. I tried injecting CO2 directly into the filter once and it made an
irritating noise as each bubble got sucked in. I think my CO2 system is
probably wasteful, but a 5lb bottle easily maintains the pH at 6.8 at a KH of
6-7 for 8 or 9 months.

- ------------------------------

From: Hardjono.Harjadi at Eng_Sun.COM (Hardjono Harjadi)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:05:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Whisper wet/dry

I have been using Whisper wet/dry WDF 3000 for my 20 gal in conjunction with
a powerhead driven UGF. The tank is heavily planted with DIY yeast CO2
injection. The filter has been running for about a year with no problem at all.
I really like this filter because:

       a. low agitation and localized on the water surface (you need to
          fill your tank up to the filter output). This is good for O2
          surface exchange and at the same time prevent CO2 loss. The "dry"
          part might cause CO2 loss but it's very gentle so I expect only
          minimal loss. With KH 4dH, the CO2 injection brought pH down from
          8.0 to 6.6. The surface agitation seems to help preventing the
          white protein layer build up. At the same tine, it sends my riccia
          spinning all over the tank surface.

       b. you can replace the "mechanical" filtration media (ie. the floss)
          separately from the "bilological" filtration media (ie. the sponge).
          This way you don't have to worry that your tank might go through
          "new tank" syndrome.
          Actually, I have not replaced the sponge since I had this filter.
          The floss removes the debris effectively and I replace this
          once a month. I only rinse the sponge once in a while.

       c. it starts by itself (no need for additional water) after a power
          failure/after you unplug the filter.

Hope that helps.

"Not working for Whisper maker :). Unless....., it runs Java"

- ------------------------------

From: gomberg at wcf_com (Dave Gomberg)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 14:27:43 PST
Subject: [none]

On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:39:02 -0500 you wrote:
>So the tank is again without substrate heating. (oh well, it's
>done fine without it for years)

Karen, if you are up for experimentation, this might be a great time
to try a heating element (like a heating pad or ????) under the tank.
 Since you are all set up for warm gravel anyway....

Dave Gomberg, Experimenta      San Francisco CA USA   gomberg at wcf_com

- ------------------------------

From: Allen Sandifer <ibi007 at mail_connect.more.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 17:18:03 -0600
Subject: Re: Plants and Ammonia

>Plants do use ammonium in preference to nitrate.  Also, just
>because you don't set up a dedicated biological filter, there is
>_still_ lots of biological filtration going on in the average
>mature aquarium.  Nitrifying bacteria attach to every surface in
>the tank.  I run my heavily planted, lightly stocked 70G tank on a
>single 350 Magnum filter, and have for years without problems.

From my understanding if the pH is below 7.0 ammonium is produced and if it
is above 7.0 ammonia is produced. If the pH of the tank is say 7.2 and
ammonia is produced will the plants still use it?

>Many people set up filterless planted aquariums, but remember that
>these people also usually have a very low fish load.  You might
>want to start with 20 neons and your algae eaters to start with.
>Also, I have found that the center of a Magnum filter collapses if
>you don'r fill it with somethingm so it probably is not the best
>choice if you are truly after a set up with _no_ additional
>biological filtration.  I just keep my Magnums filled with coarse
>gravel.  This gives them some biological capacity, and also keeps
>the basket from collapsing.
I have no intentions of setting up a tank without any filtration at all. I
intended to use my Magnuim 350 for mechanical filtration. I did not realize
that the basket would collapse if it was not filled, thanks for the tip.

Currently I have a 29g with the Magnium 350 and a Bio-Wheel 30 on it. A
couple of weeks ago I turned the Bio-Wheel off to see what would happen.
Checked the ammonia, nitrite, & nitrate levels yesterday, they were all
undetectable. My intentions was not to have no bio filtration at all, just
not to have any extra like bio-wheels etc.

My plants are doing pretty well in the 29g the way I have it setup now, 60w
of lighting, no substrate heating, & no CO2 injection. I will be moving all
the livestock from the 29g to the 45g. I plan on putting 4 20w bulbs on it
for lighting so hopefully I can duplicate the sucess of the 29g in the 45g.


- ------------------------------

From: Christine Martens <Christine_Martens at qmgates_affymax.com>
Date: Tue,  5 Mar 1996 15:23:18 +0000
Subject: RE>Wood and Singapore Shrimp

Rochelle and/or Buddy, could you repeat your description(s) of these
freshwater shrimps? And maybe even tell us where to buy them? I will be
interested in how they do as time goes on. Thanks!

Christine, in Palo Alto with the rain pouring down

- ------------------------------

From: PacNeil at aol_com
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:06:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Filtration for 29 gal planted tank

nitro at oeonline_com (Didi Soichin) said:

DS< -Aquaclear 200 (I use a Mini in the 10 gal and it performs quite well
DS<especially in regards to the CO2 injection). In this case I won't have
DS<any future possibilities to add a surface extractor and I will have to
DS<add 1 or 2 powerheads for additional water movement.

I use an Aquaclear 300 on my 30 gallon hex. I get plenty of water movement in
the tank and do DIY CO2 injection through the intake side of the filter. My
plant and fish all seem to be doing well. For more deeper circulation you can
double two intake tubes and reach to the bottom of the tank for uptake. In
your case I'd think about maybe a 500 for future use. Just my $.02

PacNeil at aol_com [Neil Schneider]

- ------------------------------

From: Mike Variano <mvariano at vnet_ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:13:10 -0500
Subject: Aquaclear vs Whisper

I was wondering about the noise produced by the Aquaclear
filters. I have several Whispers, and they are all quiet. I
have one Aquaclear Mini, and it tends to buzz. Is it just a
lemon? Also when I put CO2 into the Whisper it makes a
racket each time a bubble hits the impeller. I no longer use
that method. Does the Aquclear do the same?  If so is there
any way around it? I do like the rinsable sponge instead of
the throw away filters....

- ------------------------------

From: gtong at sirius_com (G.Tong)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:24:19 -0800
Subject: Need Rotala macaranda help

About four weeks ago, I set up my 40-gallon plant tank and everything in it
has grown very well except for a bunch of Rotala macaranda. The Rotala has
not taken root and although some stems are throwing out new branches,
almost every stem is decomposing from the ground up. This was not a very
healthy bunch to start with but I wonder what to do now. Should I try
topping them off and planting the still healthy portions? Thanks in

When I planted them, I stripped off two sets of leaves and stuck the bare
stems in the substrate with tweezers. I am using a sand substrate (1-2mm
grains) 1-inch thick over a sand/vermiculite mixture (much finer sand, 60
mesh) 1-1/2" thick. There is a 1-1/2" layer of the fine sand and laterite
below this. I added a sprinkling of crushed lily tablet to the middle
layer. Temp is 67F. pH is 6.5 and stable. There is CO2 from DIY yeast
solution. dKh is 5. Oh, yeah, there's lots of light.

Everything else is thriving--anubias nana, liliaeopsis (spreading all
over), sword plant, h. polysperma, h. sunset whatever, lilies, ludwigia
(red), Java ferns, pennywort, ... Roots penetrated to the bottom layer
within a week after planting.

Greg. Tong
San Francisco, CA, USA
gtong at sirius_com

"Every infinity is composed of only two halves."

- ------------------------------

From: nitro at oeonline_com (Didi Soichin)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 20:48 EST
Subject: Sandpoint substrate heating

 Today, in my Endless Quest For The Perfect And Affordable
Substrate Heating Cable I called Sandpoint. Like a previous post
mentioned, they're not making the 250 and 500 W cables anymore.
They're being replaced with just one model, a 40W 110V (mains) model
that is supposed to be kept plugged in at all times. When I expressed
my electrocution concerns, the guy told me not to worry about it since
the cable has a grounding wire right along and that in case of failure
the path of least resistance will be the ground and, just in case that
doesn't work, the wire has a fuse that will blow really fast should
the electric current choose the body. "After all, people put
powerheads in their tanks all the time" he added.
 I think I will surrender now and buy the Dupla 25W cable. I have a
feeling I will endlessly torture myself afterwards if I setup the tank
without substrate heating.<g>

 Didi Soichin
 nitro at oeonline_com
 Westland, MI, USA

- ------------------------------

From: nitro at oeonline_com (Didi Soichin)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 20:48 EST
Subject: Re: Questions

 "Yen, Yimeng" <YYEN at biochem_medsch.ucla.edu> wrote:

>1) Karen mentioned that the Dennerle book and the Oriental Aquarium catalog
>were decent plant books.  Where can I get them?  I had read a post earlier
>about getting a Dennerle book from England.  Is this the only place?

 I got my Dennerle book a couple weeks ago from the England source.
They were temporarely out of it and a shipment from Dennerle was
expected in 2 wks. I received the book in about 3 wks.

 Didi Soichin
 nitro at oeonline_com
 Westland, MI, USA

- ------------------------------

From: Doug Valverde <75051.160 at compuserve_com>
Date: 05 Mar 96 23:30:34 EST
Subject: Cultivation of Glossostigma

Need some help if anyone can.

I, through a friend, have managed to get a small supply of Glossostigma, or
perhaps I sould say I will have it in hand by Thursday.  It is only a small
supply.  I intend to grow it out in a seperate 10 gallon tank under as close to
it's optimum conditions as I can.  Once I get enough of it I'll start playing
with it in aquariums, but for now I want to do whatever I can to get it going.
Stuff is just too hard to get to kill what little I will have.

From some other post here I have gathered it prefers emersed conditions.  So I
have been considering growing it in bog type conditions.  Use Minnesota top
soil, which is high in clay content and very rich, keep the soil covered by
water, but no more, and use flourescent lights hanging over the tank which I
though I would cover with glass to keep humidity high.  But this is strictly a
guess and nothing more.

Does anyone have concrete knowledge as to what is the best way to cultivate
this plant?  Any help would be very much appreciated.

Doug Valverde 75051.160 at compuserve_com -or- dvalver at ibm_net

- ------------------------------

From: franc at golden_golden.net
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:52:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #301

Karen Randall wrote......

> The vals I've seen collected from the wild came with seashells
> imbedded in their roots, which gives you an idea of the kind of
> water they were growing in. (some of the clams were still alive)
> So i suppose it could be the soft water causing them a problem.  I
> know it is also intolerant of copper, which is why I can't grow
> it.
If  I am not mistaken Karen you wrote on the several occasions, you
cannot grow some plants because of high copper content in your
(Boston?) area water. Why don't you try to remove (reduce) it?? You
can just add a drop of iron chloride. You have to be carefull though
because in this process hydrogen carbonate is consumed and this may
lead to a fall of Ph value (on overdose only).  As far as I can think
this is the only side effect that you should be concerned with. If I
am not mistaken Dupla sells this product under the trade name
"Duplacrys". I have never bought it myself (no need for this water)
but I think it should work just fine.

If you are concerned about adding chemicals to your water (I know I
always am) perhaps some of the chemists on the list may care to
elaborate on this; dosing etc...

Franc Gorenc                                franc at golden_net
Kitchener, Ontario                       http://www.golden.net/~franc

- ------------------------------

From: Glenn <gcaldwel at mlode_com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 22:39:26 -0800
Subject: How to Plant a NANA

Don't woory about the alge on a nana. Dip it in 20 to 1 Colorox for 1
minute. I've done 2 minutes with no problem.  Rinse it off then replant.
 The plant will be fine and in about 3 days the alge will be gone.

- ------------------------------

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From: majordomo at hortus_bc.ca
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 02:27:00 PST
Subject: Welcome to aquatic-plants

Majordomo at ActWin_com
- --

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   The aquatic plant mailing list is intended to be a medium for exchange
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   Postings on both aquarium plants and pond plants are welcome. Topics of
   discussion include (but are not limited to):

   1. Individual plant species (identification, cultivation, propagation, etc)
   2. Aquascaping
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      soil, peat, etc.
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From: Stephen.Pushak at saudan_HAC.COM
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 15:00:28 PST
Subject: Re: Heating Cables & electricity

> From: krsfert at citilink_com (karl schoeler)
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:28:57 -0600
> Subject: Substrtate heating
> Has anyone tried FlexWatt mylar sheeting for substrate heating?
> The better reptile shops have used it for years and it is really
> easy to work with. 
This suggestion makes very good sense to me. The concentration of
temperature necessary to create thermal stress would be non-existant
with this method. I suspect that reptile heating pads also have
relatively low temperature concentrations, after all, the reptiles
sit on them without getting cooked! ;-)

> From: nguyenh at nosc_mil (Hoa G. Nguyen)
> "electricity takes all available paths."  Given a voltage source with
> parallel paths to ground, electricity will flow through all paths, with
> current varying inversely to the resistance in each path.
> The reason the ground wire works is that no voltage source is an ideal
> voltage source.  If we have a ground path with near zero resistance, the
> current drawn by that path will be so great that either:

I think the important lesson here is to ensure that the tank water
itself is grounded. If you have an electricity source submerged in
the tank, the water itself CAN become electrified without creating
an internal short circuit in the faulty device. Your body could be
providing the pathway to ground. The reason why low voltage sources
are safer is the skin's resistance is sufficient that with dry
skin you can touch a 12volt current source with little danger of
electrocution. With wet skin this is not true. The use of ground fault
protection is also an extremely good idea. Again, this relies upon
there being a significant low amount of current making a path to
the earth ground.

I must say, the notion of using wire-wrap type wires for UG heating 
aroused safety concerns in me from the beginning. I've suggested 
the use of a flexible PVC tube as a mechanical protection to encase
the wire wrapped core for applications where you want to use thinly 
insultated wires for heating under water (but I can't think why you 
need to). The insulation on wire wrap is extremely fragile; it's 
designed that way because it is used by electrical engineers and 
designers to prototype printed circuit devices (or at least it used 
to be in the days of low frequency electronics)

Steve in Vancouver

PS. A group of us Vancouverites are drumming up support for an aquarium
plant club here. Interested people can contact me, Olga or Jos.


End of Aquatic Plants Digest V1 #309

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