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Re: [APD] Disposing of Unwanted Fish

I would allow for the sake of arguemetn that mere sentience is a requisiste, although, I would insist that it would be a severe misuse of the vernacular to say that "reacting" and feeling are identical. Unless one mean's by feeling, "sensing" in the sense that thermometer "sense" changes in room temperature.

I"ve not argued that, e.e., ants ahve no consciousness; I've jsut tried to point out the reacting to stimulus is not a sufficient condition for ascribing any mental activity of a sort that could reasonably be called sentience.

If you wish to say that creatures can have pain without being aware that they ahve have pain, then it's not clear to me what you think pain is or whether or not you know whether you are having any right now.

My real, and I suppose more sypmathetic guess, however, is that you are extending notions about humans to other creatures because of some similarities in behavior -- and easy but rarely accurate path to follow.

----- Original Message ----
From: Jerry Baker <jerry at bakerweb_biz>
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:42:11 AM
Subject: Re: [APD] Disposing of Unwanted Fish

S. Hieber wrote:
> It's hard to imagine that any creature could being aware of painfullness without being aware at all.

Whoa. I don't know of any definition of consciousness that is simply 
"awareness." As far as I know, consciousness is the awareness of one's 
self as a distinct being separate from others and your surroundings. I 
don't think that is required to feel pain. However, if your definition 
of consciousness is simply being aware of anything, then I would have to 
say that even ants are conscious since they are "aware" of things such 
as the impending danger of a large foot (as evidenced by their reaction 
to it overhead). You can't react to that of which you aren't aware.

"He who throws dirt is sure to lose ground."

Jerry Baker
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