Re: [APD] EI approach with liquids

[Thomas Barr <tcbiii at yahoo_com>]

> I didn't realize I needed to use DI versus tap.  My water is
> soft but if DI is preferable, I can do that or add more tap to
> avoid precipitates, I don't really care how long the pump
> runs.

If you have  fairly low alkalinity/KH, then the tap is fine.
DI is just standard.
 
> Tom then wrote:
> "NH4, low O2, that will cause discus problems.
> I've messed with this in the past had much higher levels of
> CO2/NO3 than any Discus zealot and several client's proved
> this
> to themselves recently.
>  
> Same with NO3, at 20-30ppm."
> 
> Amen to the too little oxygen combined with discus being very,
> very bad!  Moving the Eheim return where it causes a little
> movement on the surface cured that.  That was a horribly
> painful lesson unfortunately.


Many that think "excess CO2" is bad thing and often still have
BBA due to low CO2, but it's not the CO2 directly, it's the
O2!!!!!

That good O2 allows them to add enough CO2 to begin with!!

This is exactly how myths get spread.
Correlation does not = causation.

Same deal with NO3/PO4 being limiting for algae........when you
limit the PO4, and NO3 etc, the plants do not use nearly as much
CO2.........so you do not need as much CO2 to illict the non
limiting CO2 levels in a tank.

Your plants are limited by NO3/PO4, not CO2 in that case.

What few did is remove all the limitations and keep more till
you got to the point where you had lots of good plant growth and
no algae.

Now the common CO2 ppm is 30ppm , up 100% from a decade ago. 
 
> Eheim Pro provides filtration, it also contains a mesh bag
> with about 1/2 cup crushed coral
> pH controller hovers at 6.5-6.6
> CO2 is injected via an Eheim Classic canister containing 2/3
> filter floss and 1/3 Eheim media
> fish load is moderate plus but not heavy.  4 discus, dozen
> cardinals, farlowella, few other small but assorted things
> (ottos, cherry shrimp, adolofo cory, couple dwarf frogs...)

Not high at all.
 
> Haven't checked in awhile but my KH and GH stay around 3-4 due
> to soft water.

That's fine, add some MgSO4, maybe 1/2 teaspoon or a tad more
after a water change.
TMG also has K+, Mg in it as well.
 
> I can't grow mosses, java fern or bolbitis for squat.

Then it's all CO2.
Those are classic plants that are first effected by low CO2.

Bolbitus is a fast growing weed with high light, good CO2(mist
etc) and PO4.
My last client's tank was pearling asap once this was addressed.

  In the
> distant past, I have successfully done so but can't figure out
> what I am messing up now.  Even checking back through my log,
> nothing stands out. 

CO2, CO2 and CO2.
Even a seasoned vet with logs and data has this mysterious
issue.

They also tend not to believ me and then later they get so
deserpate and have tried everythibng else and then
"viola".......

The plants above are poor competitors for CO2 gas, other
plants(say many stem plants) will outcompete these plants for
the gas.

  My money is on potassium and nitrate but
> I could be phosphate limited which messes up the nitrogen
> uptake.

These will help, but I think it's CO2 related.
I've had similar issues in the pastand have seen a pattern in a
number of tanks trying to grow mosses and ferns etc.

They are pretty tolerant of nutrient levels, they are not so
much at high light for CO2.

I use 250w bulbs in one tank, and the ferns/mosses etc, so I
know, the GH is 5, KH about the same.

 
> Any suggestions would be wonderful.  The java fern is dark
> with holes (assumed potassium deficient) 

Nope nope and nope.
CO2 CO2 and CO2.
I know peciselty what is going on here.

but the leaves don't
> even look like leaves anymore, it is like they are just
> disintegrating away and very dark.  You would not easily
> identify it as a java fern and I don't mean curled up like a
> calcium deficiency although my MTS's never have the very tip
> of their shell intact.  There have been a few times through
> the years where the ammania's new growth has been distorted so
> perhaps I am letting my GH/KH drop too low as well.

CO2.
Ammannia is very sensitive to CO2 as well.
Chronic low levels will cause the Java ferns to turn black and
die off. The CO2 is restred and bumped up, the leaves form new
plantlets and new leaves at the base.

I've done this several times, it's really related to the cO2
being poor.

> Water changes  are once a week and approximately 18.5 to as
> much as 30 gallons.  

You have soft water, maybe as well do more.
You can prune much easier and get at things, clean better etc
when you do, while the tank refills/drains, spend that time
cleaning, prune, adding ferts back etc.

At that time I add:
> 4 tsp Equilibrium (every other week I add 3 tsp)
> 3 tsp Alkaline Buffer (every other week I add 2 tsp)

Try less, maybe 1 if and only if you add more CO2.

> 30 mL Flourish

3x a week

> 50 mL Seachem Potassium
> 30 mL Seachem Iron
> 20 mL Seachem Nitrogen

Add at least this much 3x a week

> 50 mL Excel
> 
> I wasn't adding phosphate (since I never knew when they would
> hit our water with it) and perhaps that is the problem. 

Add it, it does not matter if it's 2ppm or 3ppm really, just
something in that range, you should never have PO4 issues with
good CO2 in a fully planted tank. 

 By
> the end of the week, there is a green coating on the front
> glass that I assume is green spot although it isn't spots. I
> have had green spot through the years but by water change day,
> you can't even see through the center front of this tank and
> it was never that bad.  This is the worst my tank has ever
> looked and while some things like cape fear and downoi  are
> growing like weeds, the tonina, java fern, moss and
> Hydrocotyle vulgaris is almost gone.

Yep, CO2.

Tonia is a frigging weed with flourite, ADA etc if you blast CO2
mist in there.

It's not light etc.
I'd just go the cheap www.gregwatson.com ferts also.
TMG or flourish, whatever you like.
 
> A few weeks ago, I started the "every other day" dosing.  I
> only added the Equilibrium/Alkaline Buffer on water change day
> but increased the Flourish to 60mL/week and the nitrogen to
> 40mL/week.  The amounts for everything else stayed the same. 
> It hasn't been going on long enough to see if it helped.
> 
> Thanks for any help.  
> 
> Daphne

I'd get the dry ferts, they are easier for you.
GH booster 1 table spoon at water change(has more Mg than
SeaChem, less K2SO4)

3/4 teaspoon KNO3-3x a week
1/4 teaspoon KH2PO4-3 x a week
15 mls 3x a week traces

Spike O iron 1-2x a week

50 Gallons a week water change.

Also, uproot the plants at least once every few months. 
The glass algae is less of an issue with ample CO2 BTW.

I do very little glass cleaning FYI since the CO2 is tweaked.


Regards, 
 Tom Barr
 
 
 www.BarrReport.com
 
 Better come to this years AGA!!!
 Sept 9th is the last day to get Hotel reservations!!!
 We have great stores, nice folks, great food, great natural
 settings, events, Monterey Bay aquarium, lots of AGA folks
 wondering around and you can talk aquatic weeds to someone
 who's got "the disease" also. 


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