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Re: [APD] Ran out of CO2



Tank ran out this afternoon cannot get any gas till Monday morning. What
happens in the mean time to the plants and fish. So far ph has remained
stable. Now I know the tank lasts 6 months as this is the first time I had
to refill. 
Will I get an algae bloom, or will the plants still dominate for a few days


Joe Wunsch
Wunsch4 at tricot_mgacoxmail.com

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Subject: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 30, Issue 38

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Today's Topics:

   1. bacterial clouding (ryan_whyte at utoronto.ca)
   2. Re: Ultrasound, sonication of algae (Thomas Barr)
   3. Re: new tank for Angles (Scott Scheibe)
   4. Flourish Excel killing my shrimp and snails? (Michael Laflamme)
   5. Re: Flourish Excel killing my shrimp and snails? (Erin Collins)
   6. Re: Fish that eat algae (Stuart Halliday)
   7. Re: bacterial clouding (Stuart Halliday)
   8. Re: Ultrasound, sonication of algae (Dave Wilson)
   9. Re: bacterial clouding (S. Hieber)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:33:31 -0500 (EST)
From: ryan_whyte at utoronto.ca
Subject: [APD] bacterial clouding
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com


I'm new to the list and the hobby. I set up my first serious planted tank
three months ago: 65 gal, laterite over sand, heating cable, DIY CO2,
canister power filter, 140 watts. 1/4 Water change every 10 days or so. 
The tank is heavily planted and has shown wonderful growth rates, and the
SAEs, shrimp and snails keep things very clean.

Two weeks ago the water began to turn milky. Carbon filtration did
nothing. This isn't decaying plant matter or dust from the substrate. I
did a couple of 1/3rd water changes, but the cloudiness always worsened
within a day or two. Tried dosing with Nutrafin Bclear biological
clarifier with no results, twice now.

I'm assuming that the clouding is caused by bacterial bloom? Am I right?
Any suggestions for getting rid of it?

Thanks very much for your help.

Ryan Whyte
Toronto, Canada



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:28:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Ultrasound, sonication of algae
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com


Sonication does work quite effectively.
I use one in a lake.
They do work well.
They are very effective for BGA's and green water, they take a
bit longer for filamentous forms of algae.

I think the cost will disuade you from the use in a tank.
Probably around 1200$ or so for the little one.

I use a LG sonic XXL model.

I think they can harm some thin leaf plants, at least I hope so,
as I'm using this method to kill Hydrilla.

I think at low levels, the effect on most plants is
insignificant.

I know it does not harm to pond weeds that are close to the
unit.

If the plant is very fine, delicate, then they will be more
suspecptible. Hyrilla is only 2 cells thick for the leaves, no
stomata.

So some of the worse weeds, Eurasian Milfoil, Egeria densa,
Hydrilla can be controlled via this method and we can raise
weevils in mass to attack the Hyacinth so no herbicides are
used. 

The probelm is: no one has tried these methods and tend to frown
upon anything other than herbicides. The weevils will certainly
work at high levels, but we have been unsuccessful at growing
them on artificial media, a key to being able to raise billions
of them for dispersal, much like you would a herbicde spray.

The weevils do not reproduce in CA because it's too cold, so if
we could put a bunch out there during the spring, summer and
fall, they could eat most of the weeds, then we could mop up the
isolated pockets with some herbicide and greatly reduce labor
and beat the weeds way back.
The weevils beat the weed back in Lake Victoria very
successfully, but it's nice a warm there.
The weevils have passed inspection for CA and there is no
requirements for the use of ultrasound for weed control in CA.
A typical new herbicide registration process runs no less than
2-3 million $$$.

Herbicides/insecticdes, fungicides/antibiotics tend to have a
usable life of 30-40 years before the weed gains resistance.
Good old evolution adapting to the very strong
enhanced/artifical selective pressure. 

The physical methods such as sound, tillage, flooding, draw
downs, competition, timing of planting can greatly reduce the
amount of work, cost etc.

Same deal for us. 
Our weeds are mainly algae, our crop are the plants.

No one has tried the ultra sound in marine weeds, but many
marine mammals use the ultrasound frequency, while few animals
in FW systems do.

I had considered using those small ultrasound fogging units and
set up a frequency timer for aquarium applications.
A company could make them for 100-200$ pretty easily.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:57:03 -0700
From: Scott Scheibe <dsscheibe at earthlink_net>
Subject: Re: [APD] new tank for Angles
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com

At 12:00 PM 2/16/2006 -0500,
>    1. Re: new tank for Angles (Wise, Nicholas)
>Not to rain on your parade or anything, but do you realize that mixing
>sand and flourite is a lost cause.  They will separate quickly. Then you
>will have a layered look.

         Because all my tanks are primarily Fish tanks not aquatic gardens 
and the flourite has rough edges. Very bad for bottom dwellers, also a PITA 
clean as it has all those crevices.  The sand is the top layer, much easier 
to clean, lot better for the corries, ect.  My other tank with sand, I 
hardly have to run the gravel sweeper over the bottom as the corries can 
get to the food instead of it falling in the crevices.  Also my Dwarf 
Subulata didn't grow at all in a gravel/onyx gravel/layerite mix and took 
off when I replaced the gravel with sand.  I don't care if it has a layered 
look.  The plants are there  primarily  balance the eco system, looking 
nice is a secondary benefit.
         And I should get off the computer and get setting it up, the 
flourite came in today instead of Monday.  Dr Fosters and Smith have it on 
sale BTW.





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 03:55:18 +0000
From: "Michael Laflamme" <spicolte at hotmail_com>
Subject: [APD] Flourish Excel killing my shrimp and snails?
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com



I have kept planted tanks for years, mostly large tanks (55gal, 65 gal, 180 
gal), high light and have always used pressurized C02 with all the bells and

whistles.

Recently, I set up a 2.5 gallon metal framed tank and started using Flourish

Excel.  I moved the Flourite, Onyx, driftwood, plants, fish, shrimp, and 
snails from my existing 180 into this tank.  They were all acclimated before

being placed into the water.  The tank is lit by a 13 watt CF light inside a

reflector.

I am good friends Tom Barr (who will probably see this post and wonder why I

am seeking advice since he has already given me his).   His recommendation 
for my size tank was 1ml per day, or every other day, which I followed.

My problem is, soon after moving everything into this tank, the shrimp began

acting erradic, and the snails all layed on the bottom.  Within a few hours,

all the shrimp were dead, as were the snails.  I have tried acclimating more

shrimp and snails from my 180 to the 2.5, but the shrimp die within hours, 
and the snails are not too far behind.  The fish seem to hide all day in the

thick growth, and I rarely see them.

I conducted a large water change this morning, and since that time, without 
adding any Flourish Excel, the fish have become more active and are swimming

about.  I did add all my other ferts and traces, so I feel confident they 
are not causing my fish any harm.

Am I overdosing the Flourish and causing shrimp and snails to die because of

it?  I assume whatever is wrong is related only to them, since both the 
shrimp and snails have shells.

If I am overdosing, then does anyone have any idea as to what should be the 
correct dosage given my high light and small size tank?

I also wonder if the metal tank is somehow causing me any problems reacting 
with the Flourish Excel.  I found the tank in a pet store I worked in during

my college years in the early 90's.  I re-sealed it with aquarium sealant, 
and used it for years as a beta tank, a breeding tank, and for guppies.  I 
never had any fish act like I had thrown them into bleach like my fish, 
shrimp, and snails are acting now.

Plants are also growing slowly for such a high light tank.  I trimmed the 
top off a Bacopa four weeks ago, and just noticed yesterday that a new bud 
has formed where I made the cut.  In my high light, C02 injected tanks, this

would have happened in 3 or 4 days.

I've searched the archives for any other posts, and while I did find some, I

didn't see any replies that might shed some light on my situation.

I have also written Seachem for their advice.

Thanks for any help.

Don't be angry with my now Tom! ;^)

Regards,

Michael Laflamme
spicolte at hotmail_com




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:26:14 -0600
From: "Erin Collins" <collinsexpress at comcast_net>
Subject: Re: [APD] Flourish Excel killing my shrimp and snails?
To: "'aquatic plants digest'" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

I had this experience when I first started using excel.  What I found was to
start out instead of a large initial dose, to do smaller doses (I did 1/4
recommended dose) for a few days until they (snails & cherry red shrimp)
became acclimated to having excel added.  Now I am able to dose the full
daily dose w/o causing any trouble.  Hope this helps.  

Regards,
Erin 
-----Original Message-----
From: aquatic-plants-bounces+collinsexpress=comcast_net at actwin.com
[mailto:aquatic-plants-bounces+collinsexpress=comcast_net at actwin.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Laflamme
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:55 PM
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
Subject: [APD] Flourish Excel killing my shrimp and snails?



I have kept planted tanks for years, mostly large tanks (55gal, 65 gal, 180 
gal), high light and have always used pressurized C02 with all the bells and

whistles.

Recently, I set up a 2.5 gallon metal framed tank and started using Flourish

Excel.  I moved the Flourite, Onyx, driftwood, plants, fish, shrimp, and 
snails from my existing 180 into this tank.  They were all acclimated before

being placed into the water.  The tank is lit by a 13 watt CF light inside a

reflector.

I am good friends Tom Barr (who will probably see this post and wonder why I

am seeking advice since he has already given me his).   His recommendation 
for my size tank was 1ml per day, or every other day, which I followed.

My problem is, soon after moving everything into this tank, the shrimp began

acting erradic, and the snails all layed on the bottom.  Within a few hours,

all the shrimp were dead, as were the snails.  I have tried acclimating more

shrimp and snails from my 180 to the 2.5, but the shrimp die within hours, 
and the snails are not too far behind.  The fish seem to hide all day in the

thick growth, and I rarely see them.

I conducted a large water change this morning, and since that time, without 
adding any Flourish Excel, the fish have become more active and are swimming

about.  I did add all my other ferts and traces, so I feel confident they 
are not causing my fish any harm.

Am I overdosing the Flourish and causing shrimp and snails to die because of

it?  I assume whatever is wrong is related only to them, since both the 
shrimp and snails have shells.

If I am overdosing, then does anyone have any idea as to what should be the 
correct dosage given my high light and small size tank?

I also wonder if the metal tank is somehow causing me any problems reacting 
with the Flourish Excel.  I found the tank in a pet store I worked in during

my college years in the early 90's.  I re-sealed it with aquarium sealant, 
and used it for years as a beta tank, a breeding tank, and for guppies.  I 
never had any fish act like I had thrown them into bleach like my fish, 
shrimp, and snails are acting now.

Plants are also growing slowly for such a high light tank.  I trimmed the 
top off a Bacopa four weeks ago, and just noticed yesterday that a new bud 
has formed where I made the cut.  In my high light, C02 injected tanks, this

would have happened in 3 or 4 days.

I've searched the archives for any other posts, and while I did find some, I

didn't see any replies that might shed some light on my situation.

I have also written Seachem for their advice.

Thanks for any help.

Don't be angry with my now Tom! ;^)

Regards,

Michael Laflamme
spicolte at hotmail_com





------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:14:51 +0000
From: Stuart Halliday <stuart at stuarthalliday_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Fish that eat algae
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

I believe Terry Barber wrote this email section below:
> Stuart mentioned that his mollies do a good job.  I have also used rosy
> barbs in my tanks - but they are horrible for pulling up the small plants
-
> otherwise they did a good job.   How about the mollies?   Are they easier
on
> the plants?

Well I can't say if they're easier as I've no comparison. :-)
They don't seem to uproot my small plants.

I've bought some Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (4-7cm tall Micro Sword) recently
and the mollies seem to leave them rooted.

Like most fish if the Mollies are kept well fed on flake they'll not eat
hair algae.
I let a brood of Molly fry feed on the hair algae for a week now and again.

-- 
Stuart Halliday


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:25:10 +0000
From: Stuart Halliday <stuart at stuarthalliday_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] bacterial clouding
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

I believe ryan_whyte at utoronto.ca wrote this email section below:

> I'm assuming that the clouding is caused by bacterial bloom? Am I right?
> Any suggestions for getting rid of it?

Sounds like something has died in the tank?

Though I did get this kind of bloom when I put in too much of my home made 
food which had a lot of oatmeal in it.
A friend said that the oatmeal starch reacts with the water to make it 
cloudy and feeds the Infusoria so much the water turned milky.

I stopped feeding for a few days and the cloud disappeared within a few days

and now I only use it once a week.

So reduce your fish food?

-- 
Stuart Halliday


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:40:53 +0930
From: Dave Wilson <aqua_green at bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Ultrasound, sonication of algae
To: Aquatic Plants Mailing List <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>



Hello Tom,

Here in the top end of Oz, the Darwin River has a nasty outbreak of Cabomba
caroliniana that has escaped from some ones aquarium or most likely a pond.
I was wondering if you think that sonication may help with that plant.

I am interested to find some details of the effectiveness of sonication
against aquatic plants.   Do you have any reference material on the
effectiveness of sound destroying vascular plants.

Cheers
Dave





On 18/2/06 11:58 AM, "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii at yahoo_com> wrote:

> 
> Sonication does work quite effectively.
> I use one in a lake.
> They do work well.
> They are very effective for BGA's and green water, they take a
> bit longer for filamentous forms of algae.
> 
> I think the cost will disuade you from the use in a tank.
> Probably around 1200$ or so for the little one.
> 
> I use a LG sonic XXL model.
> 
> I think they can harm some thin leaf plants, at least I hope so,
> as I'm using this method to kill Hydrilla.
> 
> I think at low levels, the effect on most plants is
> insignificant.
> 
> I know it does not harm to pond weeds that are close to the
> unit.
> 
> If the plant is very fine, delicate, then they will be more
> suspecptible. Hyrilla is only 2 cells thick for the leaves, no
> stomata.
> 
> So some of the worse weeds, Eurasian Milfoil, Egeria densa,
> Hydrilla can be controlled via this method and we can raise
> weevils in mass to attack the Hyacinth so no herbicides are
> used. 
> 
> The probelm is: no one has tried these methods and tend to frown
> upon anything other than herbicides. The weevils will certainly
> work at high levels, but we have been unsuccessful at growing
> them on artificial media, a key to being able to raise billions
> of them for dispersal, much like you would a herbicde spray.
> 
> The weevils do not reproduce in CA because it's too cold, so if
> we could put a bunch out there during the spring, summer and
> fall, they could eat most of the weeds, then we could mop up the
> isolated pockets with some herbicide and greatly reduce labor
> and beat the weeds way back.
> The weevils beat the weed back in Lake Victoria very
> successfully, but it's nice a warm there.
> The weevils have passed inspection for CA and there is no
> requirements for the use of ultrasound for weed control in CA.
> A typical new herbicide registration process runs no less than
> 2-3 million $$$.
> 
> Herbicides/insecticdes, fungicides/antibiotics tend to have a
> usable life of 30-40 years before the weed gains resistance.
> Good old evolution adapting to the very strong
> enhanced/artifical selective pressure.
> 
> The physical methods such as sound, tillage, flooding, draw
> downs, competition, timing of planting can greatly reduce the
> amount of work, cost etc.
> 
> Same deal for us.
> Our weeds are mainly algae, our crop are the plants.
> 
> No one has tried the ultra sound in marine weeds, but many
> marine mammals use the ultrasound frequency, while few animals
> in FW systems do.
> 
> I had considered using those small ultrasound fogging units and
> set up a frequency timer for aquarium applications.
> A company could make them for 100-200$ pretty easily.
> 
> Regards, 
> Tom Barr
> 
> www.BarrReport.com
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Aquatic-Plants mailing list
> Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 05:21:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] bacterial clouding
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

It is possible that, as you guessed, this is a bacterial bloom. If so it
will clear up on it's own, which might take a few days or a few months, or
you can make sure there is no source of excess bacteria food, such as a fish
carcass, as Stuart suggests,  A waterchange probably will help only very
temporarily as the bacteria multiply quickly and repopulate. A UV will kill
off the waterborne bacteria but is expensive. You can add a "clumper"
chemical, sold as water clarifier, which will cause the suspended elements
in the water to cling together in clumps, which makes them easier to trap in
a fine filter.

Good luck, good fun,
sh
 
* * * * * * * * * * * 
The Northeast Council of Aquarium Societies (NEC) celebrates its 50th year
of service at its 31st annual convention, April 7-9, 2006 -- including *An
Evening with Aquarium Legends*.
 
Read the speaker list, then download the registration form, and get set to
join the fun at what promises to be the year's biggest tropical fish
convention.
 
http://northeastcouncil.org/html/
 
And while you're there, attend the AGA's annual meeting Friday afternoon
(2-4pm). This year's speaker is Claus Christensen, Tropica's Managing
Director. 


----- Original Message ----
From: Stuart Halliday <stuart at stuarthalliday_com>
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 5:25:10 AM
Subject: Re: [APD] bacterial clouding


I believe ryan_whyte at utoronto.ca wrote this email section below:

> I'm assuming that the clouding is caused by bacterial bloom? Am I right?
> Any suggestions for getting rid of it?

Sounds like something has died in the tank?

Though I did get this kind of bloom when I put in too much of my home made 
food which had a lot of oatmeal in it.


------------------------------

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End of Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 30, Issue 38
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