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Re: [APD] CO2 and pH control

> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:19:48 -0500
> From: "David Grim"
> Andrew wrote:
>> ...KH (and GH) matters to fish, although usually not a lot, but pH does 
>> not.
> Sorry Andrew, can't agree with you on this one.
> [Algon charts and ammonia toxicity quotes snipped for brevity]
> ...I have been accused of having backwards thinking before, so no problem
> there. But to say that pH has no significance for fish is spreading
> dangerous misinformation.

And I don't believe it to be misinformation - just information in a 
different _context_.

Andrew's remark started out as a simple matter of pH levels as they affect 
fish given an otherwise healthy environment, without factoring in all of the 
possible scenarios, available or contrived. This point is illustrated by 
Jerry's reply

> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:00:14 -0800
> From: Jerry Baker
> ...I understand the ammonia toxicity, and the effects on
> nitrifying bacteria (which don't matter in a planted tank anyway), but I
> don't understand why the fish should care until it becomes so acidic or
> caustic that it is causing burns or tissue damage.

followed closely by Liz's

> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:57:36 -0800
> From: Liz Wilhite
> I have some questions about how true that really is, mostly because pH
> swings of more than 1.0 happen every time I do a water change and the fish
> don't fall over dead from it.  Extreme changes of pH -- 3 units or
> so -- appear to whack fish.  I've seen some people import apistogrammas 
> and
> have a box of 50 die within days of dumping them from pH 5 to pH 8 water.
> However, I have some questions about how much of that is strictly pH and 
> how
> much arises from the change in osmotic pressure...

as two attempts to separate the effects of pH on *fish* rather than either 
their *environment* or conditions that may affect that environment. There is 
certainly a distinction between the two here, and a solid working knowledge 
of pH and pH manipulation would include that distinction as part of the 
aquarist's ability to manipulate the fish's environment as a whole for the 
benefit of the fish.

So, do we want to discuss:

1.  pH and its affects on fish,
2.  pH as a tool for environmental manipulation,
3.  the manipulation of that environment and its effects on the fish,
4.  the difference between a more natural environment and a "sterile" one,
5.  the reasons commercial fish producers use the means they do, whether it 
be heavily stocked ponds or "sterile" breeding / rearing tanks,

or possibly

6.  all of the above, but separately before we throw them together as real 
or contrived mixes?

Be prepared, though, as those who know me also know that that my discourses 
can become long-winded in the attempt to present the sometimes 
overly-technical in easy-to-swallow, easily-digestible chunks. And I haven't 
been able to participate in such exchanges in a long enough while that my 
typing fingers may be overly anxious to get some exercise...


David A. Youngker
jaafaman at comcast_net
formerly known as "Nestor 10" to those with some history in the hobby...

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