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Re: [APD] substrates



Well, as popular as ADA substrates are becoming in the USA(due to folks not adding enough nutrients to begin with), I decided to look for something much much cheaper but similar. I think I have found it. I am doing a test with ADA soil/powersand combo vs this new product(which is certified organic) and has a fair amount of slow release Nitrogen in it, but very low NH4(they use an aerobic processing method). I can get it with more NPK or Fe added etc also. Interesting stuff, non clay based also. 
 
Comes in a couple of grain sizes, 1.4-2.6 mm and a smaller one I'm less inclined to use. Price will be about 25$ for 50lbs and that's quite a bit. So a 75 gallon tank will need 2 bags etc.
 
I've heard many folks saying ADA substrate grew plants were they had not been able to prior. Well, the same plants do the same in my tanks without such substrates by some "divine miracle"........perhaps "intelligent aquatic horticulture"? 
 
I've been around this issue in the past, every few months/years someone claims such and such method does better than any other.
 
There are many paths to the top of the mountain but still only one view.
Some folks seem able to take only one path, some try several paths.
 
I've been trying to get folks to explore these other paths(non CO2, EI, RFUG's, hard water etc) over the years, and substrate fertilization has been some what a mystery to many folks. 
 
Initially the ADA, the soil, the Barr substrate as someone has started calling it, gives excellent growth for a few months, then you need to switch over to water column fertlization.
 
Folks are fairly bad about not adding enough ferts in the start, simply do not realize they need to add ferts, have bad luck there right away and quit, do not add enough plants from the start etc. So nutrient rich substrates can work well for this group.
 
The macro nutrients eventually run out and there is only a finite amount contained in the substrate. Also, mess is a big issue and multi layered substrates mix together after time.
 
I like the richer NPK substrates for this reason, they can be added to the bottom layer, and if they mix later after depletion, they match the same base materials used above.
Soil has NPK also and if well soaked prior to use, is not that messy, if you like to rearrange a lot, probably not the best choice though.
 
The product I've working with is dark brown, almost black and has a number of fert mixes embedded into it. But they are all the same base material so if they mix, no big deal.
 
And unlike ADA substrates, this stuff is slightly more $$ than MPV turface..............
 
 
regards, 
Tom Barr   
 
www.BarrReport.com
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
  
    
 
 
 


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: flourite with soil substrate! (Vaughn Hopkins)
2. Re: Crypt meltdown (Raj) (lists at feamane_org)
3. Re: Sources of DIY Material (Liz Wilhite)
4. Re: Sources of DIY Material (Wise, Nicholas)
5. Re: Sources of DIY Material (urville)
6. Re: flourite with soil substrate! (Jerry Smith)
7. Re: Sources of DIY Material (Jerry Baker)
8. Joanne Norton R.I.P - July 16 2005 (Richard J. Sexton)
9. Re: More substrates - DIY (Terry Barber)
10. Icecap MH Ballasts (Jerry Baker)
11. Re: More substrates - DIY (Terry Barber)
12. Re: More substrates - DIY (Jerry Baker)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:28:37 -0700
From: Vaughn Hopkins 
Subject: Re: [APD] flourite with soil substrate!
To: aquatic plants digest 

Another problem with soil in the substrate is that if you ever have to 
pull out a plant, either to move it or to eliminate it, it pulls some 
of the substrate lower layer to the top. If that includes soil, it 
probably includes some NH4 too, and algae love NH4. When I had a 
garden clay layer under my black beauty gravel my real algae problems 
started when I pulled out some plants. So, I will never use soil under 
gravel again! I am now a believer in a uniform substrate, no matter 
what material it is. That is also why I stopped using root tabs for 
fertilizer.

Vaughn H.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2005, at 08:41 AM, Jerry Baker wrote:

> Rushui Guan wrote:
>> I am setting up my 55 gal now. My biggest fear is algae. I am hoping 
>> by
>> combining flourite with soil, I will minimize nutrition in water 
>> column,
>> therefore, minimize algae growth.
>
> The hardest thing for me to accept when I first started and had algae
> issues was that *adding* nitrates and phosphates cleared the problem 
> up.
> I believe algae are better at surviving off of meager nutrient supplies
> than plants, so when nutrients are limited the plants stop growing and
> the algae grow. It seems that when the plants are growing like crazy 
> the
> algae never have a chance.
>
> -- 
> Jerry Baker



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:30:14 -0500
From: lists at feamane_org
Subject: Re: [APD] Crypt meltdown (Raj)
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com

>DJ,
>
> I had a similar crypt meltdown when I did not change water
>for a few months. Similarly I scooped up all the mess and changed
>water.. the plants sprang back.
>
> Any possibility of your light being on the blink? when you
>were not looking. Has the tube dimmed a lot?
>
> Try a 50% water change and add some micronutrients.
>
> What is a "constant spray water change" ?
>
>Raj

Hi Raj,

Good to hear they should grow back!

No, the light is working fine; I'm working from home these days so I see 
it all day long. I'm sure the tube had dimmed some over time, but I have 
not noticed a sudden dimming. Is it possible that it slowly dimmed below 
some critical threshold and caused the sudden crash?

In other words, new water is being added 24x7. But instead of it just 
dripping into the sump I have a spray nozzle with the idea being the fine 
mist hitting the opposite side of the sump and running down will help take 
the chlorine out of solution (no chloramine here). I've checked with 
various tests over the years including a LaMotte and never measured any 
chlorine in any of my tanks (I double checked by measuring the tap and the 
tests did indicate for that. I have four tanks using this system -- some 
have been using it for 6-years now and I would think the wild-caught fish 
in the 125gal would have indicated a problem by now if there was one with 
chlorine.

I add some Flourish every couple of days, you think it needs more now for 
some reason?

Anybody ever figure out what factors trigger crypt meltdowns? Or at least 
ruled out some factors?

DJ


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:55:05 -0700
From: Liz Wilhite 
Subject: Re: [APD] Sources of DIY Material
To: aquatic plants digest 

Black Beauty sand has sharp edges that have been known to be hazard to fish. 
Here's one post on APD 
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9705/msg00324.html . I know 
cichlid keepers who have lost fish by using it. 
Liz

On 9/13/05, Billionzz at aol_com wrote: 
> 
> >>>Black Beauty. I've heard mixed reults
> on it's use. It's Slag, and black, and very very high in iron since...
> well it's slag. <<<
> 
> What kind of slag is it, what is it a by product of?
> 
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> Aquatic-Plants mailing list
> Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:58:36 -0400
From: "Wise, Nicholas" 
Subject: Re: [APD] Sources of DIY Material
To: , "aquatic plants digest"


> Black Beauty sand has sharp edges that have been known to be 
> hazard to fish. 
> Here's one post on APD
> http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9705/msg00324.html
>. I know cichlid keepers who have lost fish by using it. 
> Liz

Add that to the fact that it is slag and as such is not inert and I
would avoid it all together.

-Nick



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:16:16 -0600
From: urville 
Subject: Re: [APD] Sources of DIY Material
To: aquatic plants digest 

well laterite is high in iron non inert. in fact almost all the plant 
substrates carry an array of the minerals and arent inert, but the 
sharpness, thats a definite no no
Ian

Wise, Nicholas wrote:

>>Black Beauty sand has sharp edges that have been known to be 
>>hazard to fish. 
>>Here's one post on APD
>>http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9705/msg00324.html
>>. I know cichlid keepers who have lost fish by using it. 
>> Liz
>> 
>>
> 
>Add that to the fact that it is slag and as such is not inert and I
>would avoid it all together.
>
>-Nick
>
>_______________________________________________
>Aquatic-Plants mailing list
>Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
>http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants
>
> 
>


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:43:04 -0400
From: "Jerry Smith" 
Subject: Re: [APD] flourite with soil substrate!
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com

Rushui

Search the Archives for posts by Tom Barr and the Estimative Index. You will 
learn a lot about algae and plant nutrition.

Jerry Smith
Bloomingdale, NJ




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:53:13 -0700
From: Jerry Baker 
Subject: Re: [APD] Sources of DIY Material
To: aquatic plants digest 

urville wrote:
> well laterite is high in iron non inert. in fact almost all the plant 
> substrates carry an array of the minerals and arent inert, but the 
> sharpness, thats a definite no no

Especially since I will be having a fair number of Cory cats.

-- 
Jerry Baker


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:04:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Richard J. Sexton" 
Subject: [APD] Joanne Norton R.I.P - July 16 2005
To: aquatic plants digest 

Joanne Nortn passed away July 16. Sorry if this is old news
but I live under a rock and just found out.



--

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\ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / Killies, Crypts, Aponogetons
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/ \ AND POSTINGS / http://images.aquaria.net



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:37:51 -0400
From: "Terry Barber" 
Subject: Re: [APD] More substrates - DIY
To: "aquatic plants digest" 

I am setting up two tanks using Turface as the substrate. One tank has the
gray - which looks black when wet. The other tank - I used the red. It is
a calcined clay used for athletic fields and the price is good. I paid $17
for a 50 lb bag. I added a layer of laterite during the set up.

Only hassle so far is that it is pretty dirty and took a lot of rinsing.
Even in the tank - it has taken a few water changes to get rid of the haze.
That was not a real problem for me - the price made it worth the extra
hassle. It has had not impact on the water chemisty that I have measured.
Seems to not affect pH etc.

I think this material has been discussed before on APD - I am just too cheap
to buy that much flourite for this project.

Terry



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 07:38:52 -0700
From: Jerry Baker 
Subject: [APD] Icecap MH Ballasts
To: aquatic plants digest 

I have read a lot recently on Icecap MH ballasts. There are a lot of 
reports out there of them only working with particular bulbs, or 
flickering a lot, etc. I spoke with Icecap this morning and they assured 
me that those problems are several years old and that the new MH ballast 
models are such that flickering is a physical impossibility. They told 
me that you can tell the old MH ballast from the new because the old one 
looks identical to a Icecap 660 VHO ballast except for the sticker, 
whereas the new ones do not have a wiring harness.

Does anyone have experience with the newer Icecap MH ballasts? I know 
that Icecap is a reputable company, and they are happy to assist people 
having problems with their ballasts, so I want to reward that if possible.

-- 
Jerry Baker


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:40:12 -0400
From: "Terry Barber" 
Subject: Re: [APD] More substrates - DIY
To: "aquatic plants digest" 

Oh and since I decided to use "Barr Method" EI on these tanks.....substrate
should not be big issue to plant growth.

Terry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Barber" 
To: "aquatic plants digest" 
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [APD] More substrates - DIY


> I am setting up two tanks using Turface as the substrate. One tank has
the
> gray - which looks black when wet. The other tank - I used the red. It
is
> a calcined clay used for athletic fields and the price is good. I paid
$17
> for a 50 lb bag. I added a layer of laterite during the set up.
>
> Only hassle so far is that it is pretty dirty and took a lot of rinsing.
> Even in the tank - it has taken a few water changes to get rid of the
haze.
> That was not a real problem for me - the price made it worth the extra
> hassle. It has had not impact on the water chemisty that I have measured.
> Seems to not affect pH etc.
>
> I think this material has been discussed before on APD - I am just too
cheap
> to buy that much flourite for this project.
>
> Terry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aquatic-Plants mailing list
> Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
> http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.24/100 - Release Date: 9/13/2005
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 07:48:46 -0700
From: Jerry Baker 
Subject: Re: [APD] More substrates - DIY
To: aquatic plants digest 

Terry Barber wrote:
> Oh and since I decided to use "Barr Method" EI on these tanks.....substrate
> should not be big issue to plant growth.

I was in the pool supply place yesterday looking at filter sand and they 
had a fine sand made out of zeolite. Yup. Kitty litter, but fine 
grained. Thought some people might be interested in that. If anyone 
wants me to, I'll go get the name of it. It was at Leslie's Pool Supply 
(a large chain here in Southern California).

-- 
Jerry Baker


------------------------------

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