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Re: [APD] RE: getting the red out

Lest anyone mistake my earlier comments, I don't think
anyone that's posted in this thread is a fool or a liar. 

Also, just for the record, it wasn't I that presented the
pic to which Tom refers. Not that I wouldn't consider
punching up the saturation a tad, just like 'most everyone
else, if I did ;-)

One point I'd like to add. With some plants, the redness
doesn't seem to be merely new, young growth, for it's only
the new, young growth up closer to the lights that reddens.
Others have noted this, too.

--- Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net> wrote:

> > Be nice if someone had enough info to give a well
> > substantiated and definitive answer to this quesiton.
> I've done it a few times.
> I've mentioned it here and others have tried it for the
> last several years,
> maybe 1998 or so with NO3 levels and lower levels = more
> red coloration in
> Rotala species and other genera.
> > There seems to be lots of confusion in this area. Some
> > plants jsut aren't red and some plants tend to grow
> only
> > that way or mostly that way.
> True, many assume all or nothing.
> > Part of the confusion might be due to folks getting
> diff
> > results with diff techniques because they actually have
> > different plants being sold or traded under the same
> latin
> > name.
> It's possible but I think there are other issue that are
> more significant.
> > For many stem plants that redden, they do it most where
> > they are closest to the light -- possibly a function of
> > young leaves and perhaps also the brighter light, the
> red
> > coloring serving to protectd from "sunburn".
> The (chlorophyll) and chloroplast simply have not
> developed yet. The high
> nitrogen requiments of chlorophyll can easily show this
> in numerous plant
> species.
> Anthocyanins and Flavinoids have no Nitrogen. These are
> the main colors you
> see if the plant is not green from the chlorophyll. 
> If you remove the nitrogen, add other things that help
> the plant grow, then
> the green will be reduced. 
> Adding NO3 can cause a plant to turn green in a few days,
> sometimes less. 
> The parts of the plants that are closest to the light are
> the apical tips,
> the newest and region of fastest growth.......
> It's due less to the ___light distance and implied
> intensity___ as it is
> simply the area of new growth and development. 
> The red color is much more an anti herbivory agent than
> light protection in
> aquatic plants, something seldom if ever needed in our
> low light (Relative
> to natural solar radiation) tanks.Flavinoids are often
> used to attract
> pollinators which do absorb UV-A and UV-B, but that may
> be less an issue
> with protection from high light and more just a signal
> for bugs.
> Most red tropical plants are low light plant as are most
> aquatic plants in
> general vs terrestrail plants.
> So this argument that red plants are high light plants is
> not well
> supported clearly since we find the opposite in natural
> systems.  
>  For many of
> > the Echinodorus that have red leaves (Ozelot, the
> pretty
> > plant  being passed around as Kleiner Bar that's much
> too
> > big to be Kleiner Bar, Victoria, rubin, etc.), the
> mature
> > leaves lose their redness.
> And why developmentally might that be? Takes time for the
> Chloroplast to
> form and herbivores often eat the tender new shoots of
> the plant, then they
> get a large amount of anthocyanin (mainly carbohydates)
> and no nitrogen. 
> If nitrogen is low, it makes perfect sense the plant will
> conserve it and
> use it slowly to make new growth. 
> > Scott H.
> You left some things out: photography. I can play with
> film and with
> digital colors and find I get VERY similar colors to some
> of these really
> red photo's we see.
> The shades and hues are very very similar, too similar
> I'd say in some
> pictures. I know these plants and I've messed with NO3
> levels more than
> many folks. I need to see the plant in person. People
> have said they did
> not change the colors etc, we really don't know. I've
> produced some intense
> reds in many species. Then I see the same shade in a
> photo I just messed
> with and enhanced. I've seen a lot of so called red
> photo's. Red color is
> often a stress sign in many plants due to low Nitrogen.
> In order to get that red, the plant needs to be in poor
> health to get some
> of these reds. 
> Having taken some images and playing with them with some
> red plants, I see
> the precise color enhancements as I get. 
> I doubt it's coincidence alone.
> The other issue is where the photo is taken as often
> times they only show
> the reddish top, not the scraggly bottom leaves of
> greener sections, often
> many scapes are all shadows in the lower reaches.
> The best method to get good reds is lower light, 2w/gal,
> CO2(or not), feed
> fish and provide slower growth rates through less
> light-and/or low CO2 to
> reduce the nitrogen demand. This prevents stunting and
> poor looking plant
> growth/health while allowing more room for maintaining a
> low nitrogen level
> without bottoming things out and stunting the plant. Fish
> food can supply
> low levels of N continously and this ratio of fish waste
> to inorganic KNO3
> dosing is greater at lower light.
> The best reds and colors I've seen in person and also
> that one sees in
> Dutch tanks are not high light tanks, rather lower light,
> good fish waste
> supply, and low, but STABLE levels of NO3. You can also
> slow NO3 uptake
> down through PO4 limitation, but that presents other
> issues and needs to be
> balanced , not bottomed out.
> I can induce red color but I do not like it over the long
> term in higher
> light tanks as it impacts plant health, at lowewr light
> and in non CO2
> tanks, this is less an issue since uptake of N is slower
> while still
> meeting the plant health's demands. A reineckii is a
> favorite red plant
> there and can really turn very red without much work.
> Regards, 
> Tom Barr
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