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Re: [APD] Re: CO2 probe & inline heater/sumpeople find differences

I have recently added a sump to my 200 gal tank which I also use pH
controller to regulate CO2 injection. The frequency of the pH controller
hasn't changed much, at least not that I can tell any difference. But then
the flow is relatively small compare to a proper sump, it flows just about
400 gal/h.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [APD] Re: CO2 probe & inline heater/sumpeople find differences

> Glee?  If sumps are the homerun kings of filtration, then
> there's no real joy in mudville -- I expected the sump to
> have much less CO2 impact than it does.
> Re George's rather well noted experiments on CO2 use and
> sumps, I don't think I contradict any of his data -- but
> maybe the apparent conclusions. You are not misinformed but
> I think there's more info.
> I've spoken about this with others and someone, I forget
> who just now, ran some numbers. George's tank without the
> sump appeared to have been shedding more CO2 (was less
> efficient at conserving CO2 in the water) than 150g
> aquarium without the sump. My tank with a sump uses about
> twice as much CO2 to maintain the 15 ppm but about 4 times
> aas much to maintain 20 ppm. Note: if I try to get up past
> 15 ppm, the amount of CO2 required increases dramtatically.
> It does not appear to be a linear relationship. A credible
> hypothesis might be that, under a given condition (set-up),
> there is a max amount of CO2 that the water system will
> "hang on to." As you approach that level, or when you try
> to go past it, then CO2 use increases dramatically. With a
> sump that level is much lower than with various cansister
> set-ups. I noted similar results consistent with this
> hypothesis using Marineland Biowheels. I have also noticed
> a similar sort of thing comparing an Eheim diffuser versus
> a Tom Barr external reactor on a 30g aquarium.
> Both the "trickle-chamber" side and the "sump chamber" side
> of my sump are covered with well fitting lids that I made.
> Basically, the edges are rabbited to ensure that any
> warping of the lids will not cause leaks. Also they are
> reinforced to resist warping.
> The overflow originally was an Amiracle (U-tube style
> siphon) which came with a lid. I am now use a CPR overflow
> (integral rectangular siphon chamber), which came with a
> lid. The amiracle style is essentially a low volume/high
> velocity siphon -- the CPr is a high volume/low velocity
> siphohn. The diff overflows had no noticeable effect on the
> CO2 use. However, the CPR is much quieter than the U-tube
> style.
> [[[[As a side note, the CPR's lower velocity, while quieter
> in operation, tends to not evacuate the air bubles that get
> into the siphon. Accumulation of bubbles can be a problem.
> This is especially so if there is a power outage. Safe
> operation of this style of overflow, imo, requires some
> method of pumping out the accumlated air.  I use a Toms
> AquaLifter (a small diaphragm water/air pump) running
> whenever the sump system is running. This keeps the CPR
> purged of air -- it works great. The AquaLifter will even
> start a siphon that is completely lost provided both sides
> of the overflow contain water high enough to cover the
> bottom of the siphon chamber -- which it does even when you
> completely lose the siphon. Anotehr means of removing
> accumulated is to attach a venturi on a small
> powerhead.]]]]
> The diff in the rate of CO2 use with and without a sump
> might be related to the degree of efficiency of CO2 use
> generally. The hypothesis being that the less efficient
> your system is to start with, the less of a diff changing
> to a sump will make. As a rough and ready hypothesis,
> that's workable but leaves a lot to be desired. I think the
> one above is probably better.
> I can confirm that CO2 use is somewhat sensitive to the
> water flow rate when hou have a sump. The flow rate seemed
> relatively inconsequential when I was using a canister
> filter -- first an Ehiem 2250 with the stock pump and later
> the same filter modified to use an Eheim 1060.
> CO2 is cheap and the benefits of a sump are several. It's a
> matter of choice. A sump won't ruin your CO2 use, but it
> probably will have an impact, perhaps a significant one.
> I think all of this is consistent with George's data.
> Hope that helps clear things up a bit -- there isn't much
> more than such anecdotal data about sumps and CO2. I say
> "anecdotal" because the info is based on only a few
> aquariums and set-ups.
> Scott H.
> --- william ruyle <inquartata at comcast_net> wrote:
> >
> > Scott, by your glee I surmise this is not a good thing:-)
> > However, and I may have an imperfect understanding
> > of how George Booth does CO2 injection: the sump has
> > a lid on it where he injects the CO2, preventing loss.
> > The
> > sump in question is part of a wet/dry system, right? If
> > not,
> > please excuse my misinformed post--I sometimes get into
> > trouble when I don't go upstream on the thread:-/
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > > He he. It also helps you move a lot of CO2 out of the
> > tank
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > sh
> > > --- billw at waveform_net wrote:
> > > > . . .Using a sump
> > > > will let you move all your electronic gizmos out of
> > your
> > > > tank, and the
> > > > sump will help keep the water level in the tank
> > constant
> > > > as well.
> > >
> >
> =====
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