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Re: [APD] pH shock

So one reason not to cause a rapid swign upwards in pH is
that you might "shock" your fish with ammonia (convertingg
from ammonium), no?

The rainbows in Australia the live in lakes near the mouths
of rivers undergo large pH swings when a heavy rainfall
occurs and it seems they couldn't care less. Those are
swings downward. But if it was causing an upward swing and
a sharp spike in ammonia, that woul dbe a diff story????

Scott H.

--- Wright Huntley <whuntley at verizon_net> wrote:
> Bucks_Boogie at webtv_net (Rob Dotzler) wrote:
> > 
> > I strongly disagree with pH shock being harmless.  I
> have found pH shock
> > to be the most common reason for premature death after
> "Water Quality",
> > ammonia and nitrites.  The only thing is, it takes 1-2
> weeks to kill the
> > fish.  Especially fish that are delicate like neon
> tetras or anything in
> > the pleco family.  After 10 years and thousands of
> customers water
> > tests, that is my conclusion.   
> What else were you testing when you tested the pH?
> I have routinely subjected very, very delicate fish to
> sudden pH changes 
> of more than 2 full points with no short *or* long-term
> effect. [Col 
> Scheel, in his Atlas of Killifish reported 3 points as
> also being 
> utterly unimportant. I've never had reason to test that
> much swing.]
> > While I'm no scientist, I can
> > comfortably state I am an expert on basic water tests. 
> You probably are way ahead of the chemical morons who
> write fish books, 
> though.
> > Of course, they
> > all come in for a test after my second cup of coffee
> and I need to hold
> > the test bottles with both hands, like a cop taking
> aim.....
> Just like me trying to hit this slippery keyboard, right
> now. :-)
> "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is still really popular in
> aquatic realms. 
> "After this, because of this" is an old logic fallacy
> that we all fall 
> for from time to time. 90%+ of the times I have seen a
> "pH-shock" 
> problem, it turned out to be an osmotic-shock problem.
> That is, the tds 
> difference caused the skin and gill cells to be damaged
> before the 
> osmotic regulation system could fully adjust. It was a
> coincidence that 
> the pH was different and the sudden dissolved solids
> change was the real 
> culprit. [Slow acclimation allow both pH *and tds* to
> change gradually.]
> The other 10% or so were because the water contained a
> lot of ammonium, 
> and the pH was increased to 7.5 or above, releasing a
> little deadly 
> ammonia. A "lot" in this case is 50-100 ppb or so, and
> way, way below 
> what can be tested with the worthless lfs ammonia test
> kits. This one 
> can cause long-term stunting and other damage that may
> not be apparent, 
> right away. Gills, particularly, are damaged.
> I am unconvinced that pH change is the cause of what
> people still call 
> "pH shock." If they routinely used a tds meter (as many
> modern aquarists 
> do), they would quickly change their minds.
> Wright
> -- 
> Wright Huntley - Rt. 001 Box K36, Bishop CA 93514 -
> whuntley at verizon_net
>                      760 872-3995
> "Outsourcing" is condemned for sending a few American
> jobs overseas.
> What is the appeal, then, of "outsourcing" our entire
> national security?
> [The exact same politicians are insisting that it be
> handled only by the
> UN, and never by our own resources.]       -- WH
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S. Hieber
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