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[APD] RE: Water Temp/Chillers?



Hello all,

Been paying close attention to my water temp latetly.  Since it's winter
time here in So. California, I usually do not concern myself with high
temps. Lately though, the periodic high winter temps have been creeping up
my 55g tall tank temp to 80deg F. in prime time. The house temp is around
70deg. I think my 192w of Coralife lighting are getting things heated up in
a hurry. (No canopy, they just lay atop the tank). I'm very worried about
the summer months, especially since my tank is located upstatirs of my two
story home. I'm curious what others are doing to combat the high heat
issues. I can't imagine crankin' up the A/C to keep the upstairs at 70 deg
F. thorughout the summer. My electric bill would put me in the poor house!
;) Are many utilizing chillers or just frequent water changes per week?
Water changes for me would last about a day before the tank temp creeps up.
Just curious to what others are doing before the REAL summer months arrive
out my way. Thanks,

Vic Di Cosola

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Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 4:36 AM
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com
Subject: Aquatic-Plants Digest, Vol 5, Issue 40


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Today's Topics:

   1. Shameless Begging (Phil Bunch)
   2. repost: southeast asian biotype (Jared Morris)
   3. RE: Metal Halide lights on timers (Andrew Mitchell)
   4. RE: K+ at high or low Ca values (Steve Pushak)
   5. Painting an Aquarium Heater (Walker Benjamin D C1C USAFA/CS20)
   6. Re: Metal Halide lights on timers (Bill Wichers)
   7. RE: Metal Halide lights on timers (Bill Wichers)
   8. Re: K+ at high CA values (Cavan)
   9. RE: K+/Ca++ (Thomas Barr)
  10. Re: Metal Halide lights on timers (S. Hieber)
  11. Re: Metal Halide lights on timers (Rob Fowler)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:16:36 -0800
From: Phil Bunch <pbunch at cox_net>
Subject: [APD] Shameless Begging
To: "'aquatic-plants at actwin_com'" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

If you have excess Ceratopteris of any species you would like to clean out 
of your tank I can give it a good home :-) I'd also like to get a start of 
Java moss and Java fern. I told you I was shameless.

Phil Bunch
Lemon Grove, California


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:12:09 -0800
From: "Jared Morris" <jmorris at infostations_com>
Subject: [APD] repost: southeast asian biotype
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

I'm still putting together the pieces for the 29 gallon tank I mentioned
before, here's a summery of my plan

Livestock:  3 glass cats, 11 harlequin rasboras, 2 yoyo loaches, 5 siamensis
algae eaters, and about 20 Neocaridina denticulata (red cherry shrimp).

Filtration:  Eheim 2213 canister

Light: 2 x 55 watt 6700K cf

Substrate:  3" deep Fluorite Red with thin underlayer of Flora
Base/peat/mulm

Planed water chemistry:
PH: 6.0-6.5
KH: 3-4 dKH
Temp: 75-78*F


Other:  DIY yeast CO2 generator with a DIY external reactor on the
canister's intake.  Flourish comprehensive plant supplement, and possibly
Tetra Blackwater extract to soften/acidify and darken the water (I'm still
unsure of what other supplements I'll need for optimum plant growth) 

OK, so you noticed there are no plants in that summery right?  Well that's
because I realized recently that the anubius, bacopa, microsword, and other
plants I had originally been attracted to were all from different parts of
the world.  On the other hand, I also realized that all the fish I had
chosen were from southeast Asia (with the exception of the yoyos, which are
quite similar to the endemic zebra loach, and from not far off my "map").
This led me to the idea of doing a sort of Southeast Asian biotype.
Anyhow, this is the plant selection I'm now contemplating starting with:
Barclaya longifolia and/or Aponogenton crispus as back ground, Hygrophila
polysperma and maybe some Rotala indica for more height and some bushiness,
Microsorium pteropus "wendelov" and Java moss all over the rock and
driftwood, various Cryps for everywhere, and Blyxa japonica and Marsilea
crenata as my foreground.  That seems like it will fill up a 29 gal pretty
well, don't you think?

So you can see I'm at least trying for a S.E. Asian biotype, albeit a
loosely defined one.  This is my first true planted aquarium, and when I do
something, I always try to do it "all the way".  So, any thoughts on plant
selection and/or fish stock?  

Thanks,
Jared

"With great power, Comes great responsibility"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thenaturalisticvivarium/

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:20:43 +1100
From: Andrew Mitchell <andrewm at cse_unsw.edu.au>
Subject: [APD] RE: Metal Halide lights on timers
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Replying to multiple responses...

On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 09:41, Steven Pituch wrote:
> I wish I knew more about MH power supplies.  I could _not_ find a 
> circuit diagram on the web.  Try the 3 $5 timers, and see if you can 
> isolate the problem.  If its one of the MHs, we can always compare the 
> internal parts to see why the bad one doesn't work.

I think I'll try that next... I guess it should waste $5 at most...

> 
> What is a 2400W overload cutout?  Is it a local circuit breaker (in 
> Australian speak? :>) ).  I would try to bypass that if you have a 
> circuit breaker in the fuse box.  No telling what is inside it.
> 

For some reason in Australia when you spend $3AU ($2US) on a 4-outlet
powerboard, they have a button on the side that "clicks out" (and the
powerboard ceases to provide power) if you overload it... basically the same
as a circuit breaker, although I tend to think of circuit breakers as those
things in the "fuse box".

On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 11:30, Rob Fowler wrote: 
> I have a 150W HM setup (the Abrite hood and ballast) down here in 
> Sydney
> (240V)
> I use a single Dick Smith electronic timer on the 150W + 120W of flouros
and
> have no trouble at all.
> Have you tried an electronic timer instead of the mechanical ones? I have
a
> cheap mechanical one on my nightlight
> and it's a pretty rough unit. It makes a huge clunk when it turns on or
off
> so I would not trust it with any power.

The cheap $10 timers I have been using have been mechanical ones, often from
DSE. One of the ones that failed was from there. I was thinking of trying an
electronic timer, the problem being that they also have similar relays in
them to the cheap mechanical ones, just the controlling is different... and
I believe in this case that it is the relay that was at fault. Hence the
heavy-duty timers (persumably with a higher rated relay) should do better
than the standard digital timer? I may try that when I run out of other
ideas.

The other strange thing was that my first cheap mechanical timer on those
lights worked fine for over a year, and at the other end of the tank the
timer there is still working fine after more than a year. So the cheap
mechanical timers do seem reliable, except lately in that spot.

thanks for the replies so far...
-- 
Andrew Mitchell <andrewm at cse_unsw.edu.au>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:48:01 -0800
From: "Steve Pushak" <teban at powersonic_bc.ca>
Subject: [APD] RE: K+ at high or low Ca values
To: "APD" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Could Antonio Trmas' apparent problem with Ca uptake be caused by too high a
level of magnesium?

Terrestrial plants have problems with Ca deficiency with high K (saline)
conditions because the high salt level interferes with the transpiration
stream by making it difficult for the plant to take up and respire water.
There has to be a sufficient transpiration stream to conduct this mineral
because it is not easily transported. Aquatic plants would not have this
problem because the Ca is present in solution & does not rely upon
transpiration.

The mechanism for magnesium toxicity is different. Doesn't this mineral
interfere by substituting for Ca chemically?

Just a wild guess, but perhaps lowering the K level in the water can induce
enough transpiration to bring Ca from substrate interstitial water into his
Echinodorus to ameliorate the shortage?

We don't really know if the Ca levels in his water are sufficient since the
high GH levels might be disproportionately due to Mg. The Ca in the water
might be being used up.

Peat & organic material can absorb a great deal of calcium from solution by
exchanging lower affinity cations such as sodium & potassium.

I induced salt stress (leaf loss, red coloration) in my cherry trees a
couple years back when I fertilized with lime. My theory was that the lime
liberated enough salts by cation exchange from the manure-rich soil to
create a salinity problem.

Steve P


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:25:06 -0700
From: Walker Benjamin D C1C USAFA/CS20 <C04Benjamin_Walker at USAFA.edu>
Subject: [APD] Painting an Aquarium Heater
To: "'aquatic-plants at actwin_com'" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

Hi, this is my first time writing to this list, but my girlfriend and I have
a small planted aquarium with a black filter pick-up tube and a clear glass
aquarium heater against a black background.  We just don't like the look of
the glass heater in the background--it stands out too much--and we really
don't feel like rigging some sort of artificial "stump" in the corner to
hide the heater.  So we're thinking of painting it if it doesn't cause too
many problems.  

Has anyone ever tried taking the heater out, painting it and putting it back
in once it has been painted?  Of course we'd clean it well and make sure it
would be thoroughly dry.  I'm just wondering if it would do anything
dangerous to the fish, or if it would flake off the heater and cause
problems.

Thoughts?  Thanks!

Ben

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:17:25 -0500
From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform_net>
Subject: [APD] Re: Metal Halide lights on timers
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com


>About a month ago one of them failed. I replaced it. 3 Days later the 
>new one failed. I replaced it with a different brand. That lasted about 
>another 2-3 days. Each failure was the case that I got up in the 
>morning and the light was still on, despite all indications on the 
>timer itself that the light should be off... the relay in the timer 
>appears to have welded shut! So I went and spent $40 on a 
>"high-current" heavy duty timer, specifically designed for such 
>applications as "mercury-vapour lighting". It failed similarly after 2 
>days. All the timers were rated at 2400w, well above the 376w total 
>load I was giving it.
Your timers are most likely having problems switching the large *inductive* 
loads of the ballasts. What you need is a heavy-duty timer that is rated 
for switching motors. Motors are also inductive loads so timers meant to 
control them should be better able to deal with your ballasts. Most of the 
usual "heavy duty" timers are specified for use with large *resistive* 
loads like incandescent lighting and are not necessarily capable of 
handling the inductive voltage spikes that are present when the MH lights 
are turned off (and the very high currents when they're turned on).

If you remain unable to find a timer that can run your lights, you can try 
getting a "definite purpose contactor" from an electrical supply house. 
These are basically just extremely heavy-duty relays made for switching 
large motors and should have no problems with your ballasts. Get a 
contactor with a suitable voltage coil that you can use a normal timer to 
run it, and use the contactor to actually switch your lighting load on and
off.

         -Bill


*****************************
Waveform Technology
UNIX Systems Administrator


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:29:57 -0500
From: Bill Wichers <billw at waveform_net>
Subject: [APD] RE: Metal Halide lights on timers
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com


>I wish I knew more about MH power supplies.  I could _not_ find a 
>circuit diagram on the web.  Try the 3 $5 timers, and see if you can 
>isolate the problem.  If its one of the MHs, we can always compare the 
>internal parts to see why the bad one doesn't work.

Basic MH ballast schematic:

277v -->||<---[cap]---,
240v -->||<           |
208v -->||<           |
120v -->||<          (o) MH Bulb
        >||<           |
        >||<           |
        >||<           |
com -o->||<--o--------'
      |_______|


The cap (capacitor) is also sometimes called the "ignitor". If it fails, 
your lamp won't start. The ballast is wired as an autotransformer, and 
there are usually several voltage taps available (I list the US standard 
voltages. 208 and 277 are the voltages of the legs of a 3 phase Y used in 
commercial power distribution for those that are curious). If the ballast 
goes bad you loose the ability to limit the current drawn by the bulb, but 
I would think that would cause the bulb to fail rather than welding the 
contacts of a timer...

         -Bill



*****************************
Waveform Technology
UNIX Systems Administrator


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:47:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Cavan <millsman7 at yahoo_com>
Subject: [APD] Re: K+ at high CA values
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com

Steve P wrote:

"We don't really know if the Ca levels in his water
are sufficient since the
high GH levels might be disproportionately due to Mg."

If you call your water company and do some digging,
you can find out that sort of thing.  I did and found
that my calcium to magnesium ratio is about 2 to 1.  A
friend of mine with a Lamotte Ca/Mg test kit confirmed
it.  

Cavan    

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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:32:18 -0500
From: "Thomas Barr" <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
Subject: [APD] RE: K+/Ca++
To: aquatic-plants at actwin_com

Okay found a bit more to back up my claims:

Calcium, magnesium, and potassium compete for the same sites of absorption
by the plant; so increasing one may decrease another. We have said in the
past these sites are different due to the valancies of the cations in
question, but I think from what I've read that is stil true, but the over
all salinity/dissolved ion content/hardness influeces the sites, not just
one particular ion.

Using more NO3 vs NH4 also helps decrease any higher K+ effect. 
High temps also were cited for increases in Ca+ blockage.

Ca+ is transported only in the xylem, not much of an issue in aquatic
plants but there is transport of nutrients in the vascular tissue((See Ole
Peterson) and perhaps fluxes in K+ can cause changes if the Mg/Ca/K+ ratios
are off somehow.

>From hydroponic's research: K+ Toxicity - saline condition, marginal 
>leaf
burn, wilting and drying due to poor water uptake.
These are symtoms of excess K+. But this does not sound like the reported
aquatic growing tips. 

So perhaps low Ca, Mg?
I think the likely hood of low Mg seems a more likely candidate because few
people have EVER tested for Mg. I have always added Mg at 4:1 ratio with Ca,
not just using CaCO3 or CaCl2 alone if I rasied my GH, and also suggested
Dolomite which has Ca, Mg and CO3 in place of CaCO3.

Has anyone even suggested or looked at Mg?
Tested for it?
Ca++ alone for that matter?

 http://www.hydroponics.net/learn/Deficiency_by_element.asp

In most of the hydroponic literature and horticulture, I found solutions of
150-500ppm of both K+ and Ca++ recommended. Clearly at these levels, which
are over 3x the max levels I used in aquariums, there should be no
inhibition of Ca if you have enough Ca+ say a 1:1 ratio of K+ to Ca.

I've said it for a long time, I don't see the the effect on my plants. 
Folks really wanting to understand why they are having problems when they
dose K+ may want to measure the Ca++ and the Mg++ and get a good handle of
the K+ levels, perhaps do bigger water exchange top re set things then be
careful in your measurements.

Also, what is the soruce of K+ that folks are using here? KCL or K2SO4?

That will also help.
Many have not reported any ill effects with KCL, but I have used exclusively
K2SO4. GH is another thing that is needed. Ideally Ca++ levels. Salt water
Ca++ test should work fine and be available also. Much of what I've read
suggests Mg deficiency and some do not mention anything about Ca++
inhibition at high levels from high K+.

A potassium excess can cause a potassium-boron imbalance, which may also
result in transverse cracking and "brown checking". So it might not be
anything to do with Ca++, B yields similar deficiencies as Ca++.
 
The other thing, high Ca++ levels are suppose to cause K+ deficiency, I've
had extyremely high Ca++ levels 400+ppm, lower K+ levels at 10-20x less than
Ca. I've never seen any signs of K+ deficiencies. 

While some of the older plant books and even some coming out today suggest
that plants prefer soft water, one things was clear that plants prwefer
moderately hard water. Excessive Potassium can inhibit Nitrogen uptake. 
Excessive calcium can inhibit Magnesium uptake.
Some high/low K+ levels in _SOIL_:

low: < 150 ppm (< 0.4 meq/100 g soil)
high: 250-800 ppm (< 0.6-2.0 meq/100 g soil)
excessive: > 800 ppm (> 2.0 meq/100 g soil)

Magnesium, manganese, and calcium deficiencies become more pronounced with
excess K. 
An adequate soil supply of boron must also be maintained in order to
optimize the utilization of K (to support active root development for K
uptake). 
Most plants simply will not take up excess K+ once they reach their limit.
Excess K+ is very rare in soil, and at the levels mentioned, I think 50ppm
is not much K+ in the water column truthfully.

The problem is more complex than a simple K+/Ca++ issue, there are issues
with Ca/Mg/B/Mn and K+ ratios. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr



  

  

 



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:12:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Metal Halide lights on timers
To: aquatic plants digest <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

The "clunk" is just the relay switching on/off.
Some relays are noisier than others.

Before trying a more expensive timer (i.e., digital) he
might want to be sure both ballasts are operating properly.
It would be a shame to blow out $20 or $30 digital timer.
:-\


sh
--- Rob Fowler <aquaria at sarcanthinae_com> wrote:
> I have a 150W HM setup (the Abrite hood and ballast) down here in 
> Sydney
> (240V)
> I use a single Dick Smith electronic timer on the 150W +
> 120W of flouros and
> have no trouble at all.
> Have you tried an electronic timer instead of the
> mechanical ones? I have a
> cheap mechanical one on my nightlight
> and it's a pretty rough unit. It makes a huge clunk when
> it turns on or off
> so I would not trust it with any power.


=====
S. Hieber

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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:34:34 +1100
From: "Rob Fowler" <aquaria at sarcanthinae_com>
Subject: Re: [APD] Metal Halide lights on timers
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
To: "aquatic plants digest" <aquatic-plants at actwin_com>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [APD] Metal Halide lights on timers


> The "clunk" is just the relay switching on/off.
> Some relays are noisier than others.
>
> Before trying a more expensive timer (i.e., digital) he
> might want to be sure both ballasts are operating properly. It would 
> be a shame to blow out $20 or $30 digital timer. :-\
Relay? hehe, that's the up market one. The ones we have down here a
mechanical timer with little plastic pins. These pins push a switch. I think
the reverse current induced by the disconnection of the ballast is arcing
the switch. Believe me when I say these things are badly made. I have a few.
It's a good idea to best the ballasts but I don't know of a good way do to
that.


------------------------------

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