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[APD] Airwreck's comments

Airwreck wrote:

Re: the terms "water column" and "vegetative reproduction"

>> Ok I understand what you are saying... and I deducted that it was the
in the system.. but I think that the use of extremely technical voc. is
sometimes over done. IMHO.. Not everybody who read this information is
always going to follow the lexicon of a small group of insiders. it would
be much more beneficial to lurkers. <<

But this list is not specifically for the benefit of lurkers. (though they
are, of course, more than welcome)  The APD is one of the ONLY places that
advanced hobbyists can discuss advanced concepts.  Novices are always
welcome, and I think most often treated courteously. (both Scott and I
responded immediately and politely to your request for clarification)  I
think it is asking too much that we speak in a round-about manner for the
sake of beginners, when there are precise, concise terms that those of us
who have used this list since its inception all understand.

Again, if you don't understand a term, feel free to ask and learn.

and then:

 Again IMHO. This is another case of using lexicon that is only for the
insiders.. Yes I know that Vegetative reproduction is not from seeds..I
just was trying to figure out if there was some thing special.. If as a lay
person someone asks me how I got more of a certain plant ..my response
would not be Vegetative reproduction.. it would be exactly how I did it..
either by division or cutting..or even grafting(which I doubt is done).<<

This is not jargon, nor is it a lexicon for insiders.  Vegetative
reproduction has a precise scientific meaning. To use it is to speak clearly
to others with the same level of knowledge and interest.  There are many,
MANY bulletin boards and mailing lists for novice aquatic gardeners.  I
personally spent a number of years sharing my experience with novice
aquarists on one of these bulletin boards, and there are a number of other
people here who have and continue to do the same.  Please don't ask APD to b
e like the rest.  This is the one place that those of us who have already
"been there and done that" can come and discuss more advanced subject
matter.  The reason I participate in this list as opposed to most of the
others is that I can regularly learn something new from this group of
aquarists myself.  Again, I don't want anyone to think that when I say this,
that my intent is to discourage less experienced aquarists from joining in
or just lurking if they prefer.  Both are welcome, and I think you will find
MANY people in this community who are willing to give our time and expertise
to help you.  But please don't ask us to base all our wording on the
vocabulary of less experienced folks.

 >> another one in my stupid questions is a recently I've been looking at
tank competition and I was wondering how old these tanks are? Or they
created just for the show? <<

About the AGA Aquascaping contest:

>>YES I will agree that the tanks are extremely enjoyable to view. but :-)
IMHO ( seems to be used a lot) this does not make a level playing
field..more of who has the deepest pockets..or who has the best resources
for plants  maybe there needs to be a way to separate design from skill...
I will not deign that many of the entries have great design skills in
layout..but does this make them skilled technicians in the art of growing a
As to knowing which is a long term tank compared to a short term tank..I
went back thru the 200L - 400L entires and if my tiny little brain can
remember exactly I think I only saw 2 that even mentioned how long the
system had been set up..maybe I am just missing something..<<

First, the APD and the AGA are not directly related, though many of us are
members of both.  Are you an AGA member?  If so, please make sure you make
your comments on the AGA e-mail list, so that the people who are actually
involved in the work of running the contest hear your ideas.  Posting them
here does not guarantee that.  That said, there seem to be as many different
opinions about contest judging standards as there are aquarists.  Have you
entered the contest?  Did you feel that your tank was unfairly evaluated?
If so, that is certainly information the contest committee would like to

Second, again, I have judged most of the AGA contests, as well as most of
the ADA (Aqua Design Amano) contests. (all but one of each)  So I have seen
many of these tanks for a number of years now.  The information is available
with each entry.  As a judge, I've had no problem following the information
available with the entries to find the same entries in previous years, in
both contests.  You will see that my remarks often refer to the entry in
previous year(s).  So the information is certainly available, though it may
take some time and effort to follow the trail back. (ittakes this same
effort for the judges to follow the trail back)

Third, I'm not sure what you mean by a "level playing field".  I know many
of these aquarists personally, (though at the time of judging I don't know
who owns a particular tank) and I have seen a number of these tanks in
person.  These are not, for the most part, flash-in-the-pan displays.  They
are the work of experienced, dedicated hobbyists.  There is no way that
someone could just buy a bunch of plants, stick them in a tank, snap some
photos and win the contest. All of the people who are asked to judge the
contest have more experience than to let that slip by.  Even the tanks that
are not really long-term tanks (as counted in years rather than months)
have been carefully designed, tended, and allowed to mature before the
aquarist has submitted their entry.  Again, if you read some of the judges'
comments, you will see references to tanks that would have faired better in
the contest if allowed more time to mature.  I think you do a great
disservice to the aquarists who make the effort to enter these contests by
suggesting that they are not skilled technicians in the _science_ of growing
aquarium plants, for this part of our hobby really is more science than art.
It is a science we are still learning about every day, but it is still basic

Then, about water changes:

>> ROFL... sorry.. but you live in a world far different than mine... I
mean to be flippant.. but living in a 3rd world country they don't even
know what's in the water... It took me a week of calling all over just to
find out the pH of the water coming out of the tap..to verify my readings
since they were so alkaline.. now to ask them what's they add.. shite..
they don't have a clue or if someone does then it will take a month to find
them.. and then we have to deal with agriculture run off.. and who know
what  seepage happens... What I think what is missing here is that this
digest is read all over the world.. and so the newbie will see something
like just add tap water when making water changes..and everything dies.
Something I had to learn the hard way.. being an ex-pat. <<

In your original post you wrote:

 >> I do not disagree with making a large water changes it's just
that one needs to be careful.<<

If your water supply is really as unpredictable and potentially dangerous as
you indicate, you will, of course need to find another alternative.  You
would probably need to use an RO plus DI unit, and possibly an antibacterial
agent (or boiling) to purify your water, then reconstitute it with the
appropriate minerals.  Another solution in a case like this might be to
either collect rainwater, as many of us used to do, or find an unpolluted
lake nearby to collect change water.  For a long time, my local tap water
contained unacceptably high levels of copper.  I learned to manage the
situation.  I would suspect that you have learned to manage yours, or you
wouldn't still be in the hobby.  As the saying goes, "Every generalization
is false, including this one."<g>  Your situation, and mine when I had the
copper problems, are fairly unique.  They do not pertain to the vast
majority of people reading these posts.  If someone has a unique problem,
they need to make other readers aware of that if they expect to get a
relevant response.

>> Don't get me wrong..I have gained a ton of information from reading this
digest.. and will keep reading.. and learning <<

Good!  I'm glad to hear it.  But be aware, that if your suggestions made it
too boring for advanced aquarists to wade through, or made it too cumbersome
to try to answer questions or engage in a discussion for fear of using a
word someone might not understand, there would be a lot less available for
you to learn from.

>> Thanks all I will now return to my lurking..<<

Don't feel that you need to do that either!  Ask questions as often as you'd
like, and contribute when you have a different perspective.  That is how we
all learn from each other.


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