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[APD] RE: Navarro's tank and those funny tanks in Brazil


> I beg to differ that your way is the only method available for high light
> CO2 enriched tanks.

How __clear__ do I have to make this?
I NEVER said it was the only way.

"Well, I'm not saying it's the only method but for high light CO2 enriched tanks..........."

And what method is it that I use? Non  CO2/CO2? Soil and/or Peat?low/high
light? Flourite/onyx? Mulm? Sand? Snail crap?, Heating cables? RFUG?
Amano's soils? Laterite?Kitty litter? Turface? I've used all of these
methods extensively and to a very high level. I've mixed and matched.

"....about the time many folks stopped having algae problems. Also about the time that folks tried themselves. About the the time folks started winning contenst. About the time folks got sick and tired of testing and guessing if their test kits were even correct. About the time folks realized that the methods are reproducible.About the time folks were looking for a good cheap method rather than RO water for changes, PO4 removers etc and about the time folks with rock hard water realized they did not have to have soft water to have jamming tanks.."

I know you have tried all those methods, but I assume by the "Barr" method
we are talking about the heavy water column fertilization, high CO2 level, flourite
substrate, and 50% weekly water changes... no?

Oh, add Saltwater plants to this list too.

I'd like to see more advancement in this area. I have seen pictures of some seahorse
tanks in Germany that are cloaked in large groupings of macroalgae. Very natural, very
different, very beautiful.

I suggested to several folks on this list to try frozen soil cubes to
enrich their substrate on more than one ocassion recently.
I've also talked a fair amount about using agar and fertilizers for slow
diffusion of nutrients from the substrate.
I've suggested Kitty litter recently.
I've suggested to several folks to try a non CO2 tank, folks that have been
die hard CO2 users.
I tell virtually everyone to add mulm and peat to their what? Their

And it's not MY method. It's Steve Dixon's, Jeff Kropp's, Paul Sears, Kevin
Conlin and myself.
I just put a few thing together. They guided and did most of the
work/suggestions. I just modified a few things.

As basically an adaptation to the advent of widespread power compact light usage... followed
by ("heck, we need more CO2!") the widespread use of pressurized CO2.

> One of the (but not the _only_) AGA contestant
> winners is _very successful_ by using his own method. Incredibly high
> light (at least 4w/g power compact, usually higher), no N or P dosing,

Plants are not going to magically get P and N from nowhere, it has to come
from somewhere.
Fish waste, tap water, substrate.
Almost certainly a combo of the three.

Of course. Plants need their NPK, Fe, and traces. :) We aren't talking about magic
water or magic plants. They are obviously getting it from somewhere... but how?

you may try rich
substrates(nothing illegal here), but careful if you pull plant roots up
and do a water change afterwards. Not a bad habit for any type of tank.

I have been a little reluctant to uproot plants in this tank but...
I have been pulling and scrounging around in my new 20g long with Fertiplant
plus capped with 3 inches of Eco-complete (nice thick substrate). No algae and
the water is crystal, sparkling clear... more so than my flourite tank ever was no
matter how many micron cartridges, water changes, siphoning, etc I did on the
much older flourite tank. So it is looking good so far.

All three methods can looking stunning if you work hard at it.
Look no further than pre CO2 plant tank contest from the 50-60's.

I think most everyone does use BOTH the substrate and the water column
dosing methods in almost all tanks.
I do.

I used to use flourite coupled with heavy water column fertilization of N, P, K, Fe,
and micros. I have been doing this for a few years now. But I was disastisfied. With
the high light levels (4 w/g), high CO2 tanks... I found it to be a tricky balancing act
(because I tried very hard to also run the water column very lean) because the plants
pulled down nutrients so quickly. Water column dosing with only 2 w/g is a no brainer
though... MUCH more laid back, but not quite what I was looking for.

This person is no different, they just don't dose P and N to the water
column with KNO3/PO4, but it is coming from somewhere and substrate will
not last too long, after a year or so it'll be fairly depleted I'd say if
that's the only place where the nutrients are coming from.


If the tap has
some that can and does play a large role but this person is dosing a fair
amount of traces, K etc. It's not too much to suggest adding KNO3, PO4 etc
and the tank may improve even more so.

The growth seems to be really high quality, and from what he has sent me, I can't
imagine wanting it any healthier. Heck, at some point, it's not just the quantity of growth
but the quality of the growth...

I do imagine though, that at some point, he will have to add NO3 and PO4. I know Amano
does something similar. Rich substrate/Fe,K,Traces in the first year followed by a gradual
ramping up of the other two macros.

I grew plants "like crazy" using water column fertilization, but I found it as a compromise. Keep
everything green or make everything nitrogen deficient/sickly. With a richer substrate, I can
lower the macros in the water column, get excellent coloration, and keep my green plants
from suffering. Now my Ludwigia arcuata isn't wispy and orange... it looks much more robust
with blood red colors and a healthy sheen to the leaf. The tank, overall, has much more "sparkle."
Now, I am beginning to understand and get closer to how those in East Asia get bright greens
coupled with very deep reds in their fine leaved Ludwigia/Tonina tanks.

To be honest with you, I still don't understand how the "Navarro" method works. By all account,
those amazingly high light levels coupled with no macro dosing should result in an algae farm and
not a sparkling aquascape. I was skeptical at first, but after I trying it, I have been VERY impressed.

I grow Crypts emergent, these are in soil and extremely rich substrates.

I would like to hear about these. I am just starting to grow cryptocorynes emmersed and
would need any pointers I can get to get them to flower. I have been growing them
hydroponically for a few months now, but although I get a lot of vegatative propagation,
I don't get any flowers. The ones I am using are 3 wendtii var., undulata, and walkeri.

This issue is not so polar/black and white.

Of course not! :)

Certainly. I did say that the method of water changes + dosing afterwards,
estimating one/two more times during the week certainly improved life for
many folks.
It also makes it much easier to point to and adjust/correct any issues
folks might have.
It's cheaper for many folks also.
If I put my mind to it, I can produce some very nice tanks with any method.
But some of this has to do with me, and less with the method itself.

So lessy hear more about this tank's substrate, tap water and fish load.
You have peaked my curiosity so pony up with the info.
Tap water(NO3/PO4), fish load(feeding/foods/load/type), and soil/substrate
type etc

Other than stating the fact that these tanks use ridiculous quantities of light,
Fertiplant capped with Eco-complete or Florabase, and daily Fe/micro/K dosing...
I will let the tanks speak for themselves:




While we're at it, I'd like you to comment on the following tanks as well... which use
VERY weird methods (humus and laterite substrate with tiny amounts of
micro/K/Fe dosing if at all, from the Brazileiros):



These tanks make even less sense to me. :)


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