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[APD] Compost Worms

There used to be a group for live-foods dunno if its been fazed out.  I
am getting into composting and I have some red wigglers and have two
questions.  Can anyone point me in a good direction for getting
information on composting.  I looking for best breeding for red
wigglers.  How to get the most worms and how to compost the quickest.
So far I found that freezing vegetable material before I throw it in the
compost helps it break down quicker for the worms.  I've heard that
sticking shreaded paper above and below the compost leaves a place for
the worms to get air and have a home.  How do you tell how much water is
too much and how much is too little.

My next question is.. has anyone thought of using compost to fertilize
their plant tanks.  I was thinking of taking compost and putting it in
nylons and burring it into my substrate so the plants could be better
fed instead of buying those fertilizer sticks. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Aquatic Plants Digest [mailto:Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 6:50 AM
To: Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com
Subject: Aquatic Plants Digest V6 #275

Aquatic Plants Digest   Wednesday, September 3 2003   Volume 06 : Number

In this issue:

	Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V6 #274
	RE:APD list posting volume
	Green Water - Vacation
	Green Water - Vacation 
	Re: algae on plastic plants
	Re: CO2 reactor placement, post or pre?
	Re: CO2 reactor placement, post or not to post?
	Brown-Tipped Val
	Re: This may be the wrong place to ask this question but . . .  
	looking for Crypt. parva
	Re: Why is list partcipation waning (and Cycling)
	Re: That movie
	Re: Wicked screensaver
	Re:  APD list posting volume 
	Re: Approved

See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the
Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.


Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:51:34 -0600
From: Chuck Gadd <cgadd at cfxc_com>
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants Digest V6 #274

Aquatic Plants Digest wrote:
> From: <sales at aquatic-store_com>
> Subject: RE: Florida Driftwood
> Contact Us
> Call us anytime between 8am-7pm Eastern Standard time Monday -
> at 954-456-1931
> Fax only: 954-456-1735
> Please call us at our phone number before you fax us. 

I'm not sure if I missed something, but aquatic-store.com isn't
Florida Driftwood. Aquatic-store.com is based in Illinois.

Internic information shows a telephone number for Florida Driftwood
of (954) 572-1350.

Dwight from Florida Driftwood use to be reachable here on the
list, and by email at boukmn at MINDSPRING_COM


Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 04:34:51 -0700
From: "Robert H" <robertph3 at comcast_net>
Subject: RE:APD list posting volume

>>Well after while of learning, folks know all they want or are willing
know about keeping plant tanks. Some stick around to haggle over this or
that, some to help new folks etc.

But in the end they get what they need and move on. They are not
to stay and help other new folks.<<

Well I am sure thats true. Thats true of any forum. Participation goes
and down, regulars come and go. But look at the numbers for the whole
and compare them to previous years. Quite a drop. One old time regular
this forum posed this question on my forum. I don't know why its dropped
here, while on other forums like The Planted Aquarium, Fish Geeks,
central and my forums are growing, not declining. I don't mean this to
critical, I hoped bringing this up might wake up a lot of people who
been quiet for so long now! Well at least there hasn't been a major
fest in a while...

I have been tickled pink to read posts from Karen Randall lately. Its
to far and in between! :)

Robert Paul Hudson
Join the 1100 AB members


Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:52:18 -0400
From: "Daphne Freeman" <daphne_freeman at charter.net>
Subject: Green Water - Vacation

Matthew asked about preventing algae outbreaks in his tank during

Just my two cents...

You already have someone coming in to feed.  It would be a bit much to
them to measure out and fertilize but what if you made up cups or some
containers with each one containing everything for one dose and set them
the tank?  Each time they feed, they pour in a cup.  When I took trips,
made up little foil packets of food for my neighbor to dump in.  This
about after one trip when  I came home to what looked like a 5 gallon
of food coating my tank!  We were both more comfortable with the packs

The other more reliable/more expensive option is to set up an
Automated Aquariums has several sizes of dosing pumps that are fairly
reasonably priced.  Mine are still in the box but I plan to set one up
I never remember to dose mid-week.



Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:46:39 +0100
From: "Matthew Simmons" <matt_simmons at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Green Water - Vacation 

Daphne wrote
"When I took trips,  I made up little foil packets of food for my
to dump in.  This came
about after one trip when  I came home to what looked like a 5 gallon
of food coating my tank!  We were both more comfortable with the packs

I think this is a really good suggestion, thanks.  What would you dose
with - just macros ie K2SO4, KNO3 - these I dose dry and would work in
packets.  Would it be OK to forget the Fe and  traces for a couple of

Any thoughts on my green water that gets worse at night and clears
the light period?




Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:53:56 +0100
From: "Matthew Simmons" <matt_simmons at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: algae on plastic plants

Tom Barr wrote

"Blacking out the tanks for a few days should do the trick, you can take
blanket/trash bag whatever you use to cover it at night to look at the
fish/feed etc and do this for a week or so. Copper sulfate works well,
fish are sensitive to copper but even at low dosages(Perhaps silver
dollars/catfish) certainly, it should kill off most algae."

Another thought along these lines would be to buy a duplicate set of
plants, if you want to stick with artificials, and that would negate the
need to black out the tank itself or add chemicals  You could put the
plants into another container and black that out for a week and put the
'clean' set in the tank until they get dirty.  Keep cycling them like
You will then have 24/7 fish availablity and relatively clean artificial

My 2p.



Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: CO2 reactor placement, post or pre?

Tom said:

"The post filter side has to deal with the vertical head
pressure in the
line. Does the prefilter line also have head pressure to
deal with?"

You have gravity working with you on one side and working
against you on the other.  With a canister the dynamic head
evens out to zero --  not counting the static head from
from friction, tubing size, bends, and any other things
that impede flow.  On the suction side the vapor pressure
is lower which theoretically means the CO2 doesn't absorb
as readily -- but the pressures on hobbyist pumps are so so
small, the efect is very light.  You'll still get al the
CO2 into the water.

"Why is there a limit of the height a canister filter will
be able to pump
water to (w/o reactor added)? Is this merely from the
frictional losses of
the water/sides of the hose?"

If you increase the relative height of the ut put (relative
to the input, that is) then the pressure declines to zero
at some point and you have no water coming out.  But in a
normal cansiter set up, that's not an issue. Well it's not
the dynamic head anyway in a normal set up since there
isn't any -- well, technically there is but gravity push on
suction side gives an opposite, contervailing effect.  As a
single system, from the intake screen to the output nozzle,
the dynamic head, the effect of gravity on the water, nets

"But you can place a larger input diameter in the suction
side, generally
3/4" in, and the output side will be 1/2" out.  Many/most
work best with a larger suction side and small output for
good head pressure
lifting with minimal flow rate losses as the head
increases. Many filters
are also set up this way(Via Aqua that I have etc). As the
head pressure
increases, pump designs go to different smaller sized
outputs to make up for
for this.   "

Based on the tubing sizes on many canisters, smaller tubing
on the pressure suggests that impediments to flow have less
overall effect on the presure side and should be avoided on
the suction side, where the manufactures tend to use
larger, less restricting hoses.  Smaller hoses on the
output side don't increase the water flow via-a-vis larger

"This results in better flow with this placement rather
than post filter."

Or the opposite is true or there is essentially no net
improvement either way ;-) .  It probably matters, but only
very slightly, that we're talking about dynamic (in this
case centrifugal) pumps and not positive displacement
pumps.  Centrifugals are less accepting of restrictions on
the suction side, but restrictions aren't an issue *unless*
they are substantial ones that induce cavitation at the
impeller.  Caviation results when the vapor pressure gets
low enough for "bubbling" gas out of the water due to the
suction and reduced pressure due to restricted flow into
the impeller.  [Behavior would be diff with a postive
displacement pump.] The vapor presure is higher on the
pressure side, but the diffs are slight unless there is
significant restriction on one side or the other.

"The other thing is simpler vertical placement. With post
filter placement,
you would need a loop going in the top and exiting the
bottom since the CO2
reactor requires vertical placement to prevent bubbles from
escaping out the
bottom. This results in longer hose return lines/total
length. Longer pipe
length= more friction = more work= less flow."

Since you feed the water into the top of a reactor, you add
the length of the reactor when installed on the output
side. But if 12-15" of tubing is having a noticable effect
on your water flow, get a bigger filter, you've got bigger
problems than deciding where to put your reactor.  Otoh, yo
get that slight imporovement is absorbtion from the
increased vapor pressure.

But the amounts are so small -- mount wherever it's easier
- -- it works fine both ways.  You should get 100% CO2
absortion eaither way unles you have a substantial
restrction on the input side.

"It's easier to put it at the pre filter side as far as
installation goes and
the potential for leaking is less on this side as well."

If you're relying on pump suction to avoid leaks, get
better fittings -- the pressures involved with hobbyist
pumps and filters are so low, you should have secure
connections whether the pump/filter is turned on/off.

Scott H.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
Subject: Re: CO2 reactor placement, post or not to post?

One thing that's pretty certain, whichever side of the
filter you put the Reactor, the output, if run into a white
bucket will definitely have the appearnce of blue -- or
maybe white?  ;-)

Scott H.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software


Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:26:09 -0500
From: "Jennifer Marshall" <zephyr18 at ev1_net>
Subject: Brown-Tipped Val

I have a nice lucious row of spiral val whose tips keep getting brown.
It never had this problem in my lower-light tank, and it has me stumped.
Is it nutrient related?  My research has told me that a lack of
potassium or copper could cause this.  I have just started adding
Seachem K because I was noticing pinholes in my lotus, and I read that
that might be the cause.  I also dose twice a week with a double dose of
Seachem Flourish and Trace Minerals.  I have CO2 and about 3watts per
gallon of light. 
  Another interesting observation is that the leaves that are directly
under the lights seem to get browner quicker.   I have a power compact
with 2 96watt bulbs  Is it possible that they are just being roasted?  
While I'm here - is it phosphate that will redden up my red plants?  I
thought I read that in an APD post a few months ago, but I couldn't find
it again.  I have a couple of red plants who could use a bit more color,
and I have zero phosphates.  What is the target level for phosphates in
a planted tank?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Jennifer in Austin,Texas

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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:03:01 EDT
From: GramFran413 at aol_com
Subject: Re: This may be the wrong place to ask this question but . . .

In a message dated 8/31/03 2:31:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com writes:

> You don't say anything about lighting in the tank but I am assuming
> you
> have the regulation one or two tubes for a fish tank.  

Sorry, I know I should have mentioned that!  DUH!!!  It's an Eclipse
with two two-year-old 15W T8 bulbs.  I know they're old, but didn't
think that 
would matter with my plastic "plants".

> The dark algae you are accumulating is probably either brown
> or green spot that has built up and in layers tends to look dark brown
> black.  If its brown algae its soft and comes off easily by gently
rubbing the 
> plants but to be
> honest, IME if its brown your plec should be getting rid.  I suspect
> layers of the green spot you have on the glass.  

>From what you say, I suspect, too, that it's the darned green algae!
never seen the plec on the "plants"  He's either on the grass, the
the substrate, or the zucchini.  

> You will have to scrub each leaf with an abrasive pan scraper or algae
> - good luck!  

There's no way!  There may be thousands of individual leaves in there!
rather replace them with a new plastic plant with larger leaves that
might be 
easier to clean; One of these mimics rotala; the other, stargrass.

You could try soaking the plants in a bucket of mild bleach solution
(not in 
the tank 
> :-))but thoroughly rinse and soak the plants afterwards in lots of
> water - this was an old remedy for black algae - you will find
> and advice on the Krib.

I think I'll take one of them out this afternoon and give that a go --
what happens.  

> Why don't you get some more bogwood and use lots of java fern. 

Becaise they EAT Java Fern right down to the roots -- not the rhizome,
the ROOTS!  

> Simply tie it to the bog wood and it will quickly root over it - the
> will go
> black over time but you can chop them out allowing fresh ones to show
> through.  Its a very robust plant and impossible to kill - survives
> light, works better with a little CO2 but just don't plant it in the
> gravel - it hates it.
> Good luck
> Matthew

Thanks very much, Matthew.  All contributions are graciously accepted :)
. . . off to the patio with the bleach bottle and the rotala looking
More later . . . 

Growing old is inevitable; growing UP is optional.

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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:00:54 -0400
From: Ron Barter <mistnfrost at superaje_com>
Subject: looking for Crypt. parva

    I've been trying to get my hands on some Cryptocoryne parva for a
of years now, with no luck. Does anybody on the list have any they'd be
willing to pop into a padded envelope and mail to Canada? I'd be happy
buy or trade, whatever your prefernce. Obviously a Canadian source would
work easiest, but I'm game to try shipping from anywhere. I figure we
have a
few weeks yet before the weather turns nasty <g>.
    Please contact me off list if you can help.

Thanks a bunch,

Ron Barter
Perth, Ontario


Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 00:12:02 -0700
From: Larry Jones <ljones at usc_edu>
Subject: Re: Why is list partcipation waning (and Cycling)

On 8/31/03 2:27 AM, "Aquatic Plants Digest"
<Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com> wrote:

> Re: Why is list partcipation waning (and Cycling)

> Can I ask one question though:  When should I add a sizable fish load:
> right away or gradually?  I've always done it gradually, but that was
> when I was actually cycling the tank.

I thought I would stop lurking for a minute. I have lurked on this list
since undergrad, so since around 1993-94. There seems to be much
misunderstanding about Nitrogen in planted and fish only aquaria. One
error in thinking is that a "cycled" tank can accommodate any load of
and their wastes. A balance will be established between the amount of
bacterial food (ammonia, for simplicity I will just use ammonia/NH3) and
number of consumers/bacteria. If you have a stable number of fish and
them the same amount of food you will have a stable amount of bacteria.
you suddenly add a large number of NH3 producers ie fish you will have
excess of NH3 until the consumers can multiply enough to take advantage
the new food supply. In the short term you will have elevated levels of
Also if you return to the original number of fish you will have a
deficit of
NH3 from the view of the bacteria therefore many will starve and die and
will end with about the same number of bacteria you had before you added
extra fish. Plants that are growing well also act as consumers of NH3.
now you will have even less NH3 available to your bacterial consumers so
even more will starve. When your plant growth is optimal there may be no
measurable Nitrogen. And for those not in the know the "N" in NH3 is the
symbol for Nitrogen. So to jump to the question, I suppose it depends on
what you mean by sizable, and how heavily you are supplementing your
aquarium with nitrogen. And of course how large your aquarium is. In
case you state approx 80gal. If you have rapid growth where you are
out 6in cuttings off your stem plants weekly I wouldn't be worried about
adding 30-50 tetra sized fish. Of course on a side note I would worry
introduction of disease. And I would still monitor the NH3 levels. If
tank is not so heavily planted or the plants are not growing so fast, I
would add fish more gradually and still I would monitor the NH3 levels
be ready for water changes as needed.

Another plus about NH3 in heavily planted rapid growth aquaria is that
co2 supplementation and soft to moderately hard water the pH will be
acid or
close to neutral. This will keep the bulk of the NH3 in the less toxic
form and keep the fish less stressed.

Well I am tired and back to lurk land I go.

Larry Jones
ljones at usc_edu


Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:13:21 --0400
From: <SleetScat at aol_com>
Subject: Re: That movie

Please see the attached file for details.

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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:19:15 --0700
From: <wcwirla at earthlink_net>
Subject: Re: Wicked screensaver

See the attached file for details

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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:09:21 -0700
From: "Roger Miller" <roger at spinn_net>
Subject: Re:  APD list posting volume 

Scott H. wrote:

> Ocassionally we hear from chem experts, tplant taxonomists,
> botanists, etc.  Now we need to hear from one of the
> marketing experts on why APD appears to be losing market
> share to lists such as RPH mentioned.

I'm not a marketing expert and I think input from a marketing expert
would be
purely academic unless APD could somehow change in response to the

I think it's fairly obvious why and how APD is losing share.  The boards
Robert listed provide participants with an organized, threaded
discussion over
a wide range of subjects within the general field of planted aquariums,
easy access to other resources.

New users find the other boards more appealing than APD, so that's where
go.  I don't see very many questions from neophyte hobbyists on APD, but
questions are a large part of the volume on the boards.  Without
by newcomers attrition takes over and APD gradually loses traffic.  I
the process has been at work for a few years now.  Overall growth in the
has far outstripping growth on APD.  It is only within the last few
that conditions have reached the point where there was a significant
in traffic on APD.

The situation might be ameliorated a little if Mark and Cynthia migrated
list to a simple, threaded front end.  But that would only be one step.
other necessary steps might be more difficult. APD needs to change the
and content of the discussion.  Currently the content covers a narrow
range of
topics with an increasingly dry and technical tone.  The range of topics
to be expanded and the level of discussion needs to reach down to the

I don't know what is in the future for APD.  There was a time when APD
was the
pulse of the planted aquarium hobby in North America.  That isn't true
APD might continue as is for a long time, providing technical
discussions in
an ever-smaller community.  Without changes I don't think that APD will
again be the diverse and interesting forum that it once was.

Roger Miller


Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:10:41 --0400
From: <SleetScat at aol_com>
Subject: Re: Approved

See the attached file for details

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End of Aquatic Plants Digest V6 #275

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