Re: Simple CO2

[Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net>]

I'll entertain you Joelle, but be careful or I'll sue you for libel "and I
never joke":-)

Ah, but since you've decided to delve into my liar:
  
You have confused the high pressure system/Eheim disc set up with a needle
valve system. It is ___the lack___ of a needle valve, NOT the regulator that
is the problem you have imagined here.
You are fishing with a lifeless rubber worm.....
 
> The problem I have with this DIY cheap approach is the use of these brewery
> regulators.  

Poppycock

I have use these for around 12 years. You?..........
Every system I've put together has used one, I did a few Dupla's/Tunze and
some other stuff but by and large the brew reg's are the main unit being
used.
They also had/have needle valves.

>They are not factory preset to control the delivery of Co2 for an
> aquarium application.

This doesn't matter one iota.
How hard is it to set at 10-20psi range? Then it's "preset".

> Why should they be?

Well I _know_ it does not matter:-)

> They are for brewing after all.

Ohmegosh! We should call the FBI. (Federal Beer Investigator)
There are folks on the APD using it and not paying the high priced
specifically made for aquarium use factory preset regulators......
Dang heathens......
   
> Don't think slapping a good needle valve on the end will fix this fatal flaw.

Fatal flaw?
Which is? Your very first post to the APD? Or missing the point about the
needle valve? 

Actually that was the past problems with the end of the tank dumps, the
Eheim disc/high pressure system did not have a needle valve. You need to go
back and look at the archives. Regulating CO2 through a Eheim disc with the
regulator is asking for trouble without the needle valve.

I've run my tanks down to 0 psi and watched my pH etc, I have about 12
needle valve presently on 2 systems and have installed perhaps 60 of these
valves so I likely have a bit more experience in this area. I've never
killed any of my fish through a "CO2 dump", the pH was stable the entire
time (I watch it on a digital monitor) and I have upgraded the reg's owned
by other folks that have had that happen to them(lost all their fish to a
"Dump"), they have not it happen again since adding the needle valve.
No one I know has had this happen that uses a needle valve. None of the
clients have either and they have watched the tank run down from the 800psi
tank pressure all the way to zero and used a pH monitor as well with the
same observations.

> Needle valves are for fine-tuning the flow, not pressure regulation.

I don't use it for pressure _regulation_, that's what the _regulator_ is
for.

I drop the pressure to 15psi and then drop the _flow_ down with the valve.
The reg does the pressure regulation. The needle valve does the flow
delivery. Two part system.

You have to have _some_ slight pressure to produce a flow other wise there's
no movement. So in a certain sense, it does regulate pressure, although it's
slight and much lower than the tank pressure in this case.

I've never lost a fish due to a CO2 accident or CO2 related issue. As a
matter of fact, Suicide is the only way out or old age with all the fish
I've kept since becoming involved with planted tanks and CO2.
I've set up tanks for clients. They have never lost a fish to a poor CO2
system. I've had calls for fixing problem systems or ones that dump though
but nothing I've designed or put together.

You may want to check the archives, we've had some very in depth, rocket
science level discussions about the needle valve and it's use on a CO2
regulator.
Distilled down from those past rants: if you set the outlet pressure in the
10-20psi range , the needle valve are capable extremely accurate delivery
rates and maintain a stable pH that perhaps need minor adjustment once twice
a year.
 
> Use these regulators at your own risk.  The entire dumping phenomenon was
> caused by a guy selling that regulator for aquariums.

Your missing the target here and confusing the parts.

It was the Eheim disc, not the regulator. Please check the archives. I use
the disc myself but never found them to be an issue but I know many others
did. Some folks were very careful and cleaned it etc and still had issues
and dead fish from dumps. I've never used CO2 systems without a needle
valve. So add a needle valve. End of story, problem solved.

Or you can get a nice Victor regulator for $$$ and all but I'd still have to
have the needle valve. Common sense dictates having one no matter what type
of system you have using gas CO2.
 
> The advantage those
> so-called expensive aquarium regulators have over the cheap brewery regulators
> are they are factory preset for aquarium use.  That's it.  No need for all the
> techno-babble. They also have a company backing them up with warrantees.

So they will replace your fish if you don't use it right and/or use it use
it with a Eheim disc? That's what expected from the other guy here.

If you buy a faulty reg from these companies they will replace them as well.
I'm failing to see much/any of your point here that cannot be solved by
adding a Clippard 4 series valve for 10$.

I think you should be saying this rant if I had no needle valves but heck, I
mean I did have 6 of them there for you, how can you miss that?

Even nice pic's of each part.

> How many of you that bought one of those bewery regulators for your aquarium
> had the thing dump on you?

How many did _not_ have a needle valve? Every one of them:-) How do I
know?,I've "fixed 8 such "dumping" systems by simply placing a needle valve
( Clippard, who gives great service and are prompt) and adding a good
reactor. Folks have not had issues since. Some of those are 5-6 years old
now. 

> How many dumping victims got any compensation from
> that guy you bought them from?  The guy still won't admit the thing is faulty.
> Now Tom Barr is advocating using similar stuff....

The reg is the same, the needle valve _addition_ is critical. That part was
missing from the other systems that had problems.
And you'll notice again, I have 6 of them on that regulator for you, just so
folks can see and make sure they know to use and add one.
I have never stated otherwise since I started using canned CO2 system over a
decade ago.
 
>> If you have a positive suction style reactors......powerheads or filters
>> sucking the CO2 gas out all the time and you make a drip in the CO2/air line
>> no water will back into this set up even if the tank runs zero pressure for
>> days.....
>> 
>> So you don't need a check valve
> 
> When the powerhead or filter inevitably clogs or you have a power outage what
> happens then? 

Same thing that happens _every_ _single_ _night_ on all my systems, the gas
stops flowing into the reactor/filter etc.
Don't ever run my CO2 24/7, it only comes on when the lights do.
Now if what you say is true and what I say is not, Considering the tens of
thousands of times the water has and an opportunity to backflow, why hasn't
it? It's been many years, daily, and on many folk's systems etc.
You say it doesn't work but apparently it does..........consistently.
I'd rethink what you're saying there.
 
I might clean the powerheads once in a blue moon, but they don't get clogged
much and not at all if you plan on cleaning your tank at least once every
two weeks. Most folks do take care of the tank, clean their filters etc.
But if you don't, you simply have less CO2 in the tank is all.

When the powerhead shuts off, all the leaves or gunk floats off the impeller
cage. And most folks remove floating leaves when they tend their tanks.
Smaller bits get ground up by the impeller.

Now my turn, what happens when the check valve fails (and yes, they sure do)
? Oh please do tell.

> You get a back flow straight into the needle valve, regulator
> and tank.  

Please explain why in doing this, I have never had an issue nor have any of
my clients? Why have I never had a backflow into that regulator or any
other?
I set my systems up to be turned off at night, I have multiple needle valves
and so do a number of recent clients yet no one's ever had an issue for over
a decade?
 
Even when the gas tank psi runs to zero perhaps a dozen plus times over the
years?
I explained a reason already, go back and read it.

If you placed the CO2 input on a the output side where there's negative
suction(positive pressure) then the risk is great and you increase the back
flow issue. I made certain to make this clear and to show a distinction
about placement on the suction side.

Adding the CO2 inlet there using a DIY yeast system is also dangerous but
only if you use a soft plastic bottle, using a rigid juice bottle solves
that issue and DIY yeast folks can use this approach also so that the tank
water or brew does not get sucked into the tank or kills the brew mix.
 
> The advocacy here should be tempered with cautious <experiment at your own
> risk> disclaimers so everyone knows these DIY approaches come with many risks.

It's not 100% fool proof, nothing is. But if you are handy, you can do this
pretty easily. If you can use a wrench, add pipe compound and find the parts
and screw stuff together tightly, it's no different than those high priced
regs with needle valves.

You cannot prevent stupidity and there is no pill for neglect.

Regards, 
Tom Barr