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Re: war?

Thanks for reeling me back.
Neil is one of the _real_ reasons why I am on the APD from the beginning for
those who have not seen him and I have learned a great deal from him.

>> I disagree. I've worked on many many BBA tanks. I've tried to lower the NO3
>> to zero(then up to 75ppm), I've tried to lower PO4(mine sat mighty high at
>> 1.2ppm). Steve Dixon also tried all sorts of methods based on nutrition to
>> kill it(ran the ranges of NO3 and PO4 as well all the way up and all the way
>> down).  We both failed to get rid of it and addressed this issue carefully
>> (he has soft water, I have moderately hard, we both used good Lamott or Hach
>> test kits and pH monitors).
> I have been there and done that too. And for a much longer time :-)

Doing something longer doesn't mean your right:)

There's folks that kick my tank's booty that only have 2-4 years in. A few
of them test like crazy. Algae I know well and have done many inducements
and removals and taken a close look at the patterns. This IS what I do
academically as well.

Folks on the list are using CO2, SAE's, good nutrition, lighting, blackouts,
prunings etc to work towards their goals, most of which center around
controlling the algae. We seldom see a post relating to a very small %
planted tank on the list. Maybe there are folks out there that have a tank
like that but they don't post much, if ever.

If a person comes on this list and has a non CO2 tank and wants to focus on
growing a single sword plant, I can help him/her also.
But it's seldom seen. Thanks for the acknowledgement of these folks though.
I overlook much in my post upon reflection.

Everyone's case is different but the folks that I answer and end up helping
are folks with CO2, light, nutrients most often.
Folks crave an Amano Tank or a neat plant etc, few crave a single plant with
poor growth and some algae on it.
> Note that my statement above included the use of SAEs

 Notice that mine were removed in this treatment. We all know it's an
effective herbivore. Why (and why not) the algae persisted in the first
place is what I addressed. I believe this to be a fundamental question, not
whether a SAE eats it or not, that was already well established. With that
in mind, I went about focusing on algae and it's nutrient needs and
tolerances. I used the nutrient method. Algae are like plants in many
respects and many of needs are the same but in a different niche range to be
effective and competitive.
> Tom is making a different and important point. That CO2 can be an important
> part of the solution. However, not every BBA tank can easily have CO2
> injection.

Why not? DIY is simple, cost is near nothing. Wayne's notion of focusing in
on improving the production and frequency is something I never really
considered to lower cost/labor(I had considered it but was unsuccessful at
solving my issue at the time). I improved the dissolution efficiency instead
to get more out it. But by adding both Wayne's method and mine together, DIY
may work very well. Even at low lighting levels.
Yes, I like **options** and use several at once to really knock out algae if
it's bugging me. 
Reviewing a number of my post I find I do give **several** options in most
every case.

> [I keep 12 planted tanks...more without water for emersed
> growth. I only have CO2 on 4 aquaria] I think it is a safe bet that some of
> us keep a least one planted tank without CO2. Let's not make CO2 a
> requirment or we will have to form a new email list. :-)

I won't go there:)
As far as other tanks without CO2, SAE's, no additions to the water column
of traces/iron, Blackout etc can handle almost every algae problem.
I have non CO2 tanks as well. I do very well with them. I'd have more but my
space will not allow it. I can work on non CO2 tanks with as much
success(perhaps more) as a CO2 tank when it comes to dealing with algae.
They have different tenants and arguments.
If anyone wants to work on that I help and have in the past on BBA. CO2 is
not the only method to get rid of it but it's lack is a cause for good
growth and appearance.
Every single tank I have ever seen had poor CO2 or had a past residual CO2
issue(the alga hung on through the semi good period on Anubias and other
long lived leaves) that had BBA or very large bioload.

> I suspect that if Steve would
> let his tank go to pot (which is not possible :-),

Ohhh, but he has and does. His work eats his time to play on the tank as do
family obligations. He's been doing this for awhile now, just to see what
happens. Letting it go. Seeing if nutrients alone can cause the changes.

> then the BBA would
> reappear. Of course, some folks like the look of BBA. It can be quite
> attractive on driftwood under a current.

Well then you know you've turn traitor and become one of the Borg
collective. I like algae alot in some cases but this red alga doesn't do it
for me and is more a pest than anything.
> So, folks the conclusion is that there are several methods to reduce and
> even eliminate visible BBA if that is your wish. If you dont want to use
> CO2, or you cant get SAEs, then algaechemicals may look appealing . Be
> forewarned, however, these algicides may come back to bite you.

Very true words!!
Tom Barr

> Neil