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Re: Gloss:NO3:DON: other
- To: <Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com>
- Subject: Re: Gloss:NO3:DON: other
- From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
- Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:11:33 -0800
- In-Reply-To: <200112072048.fB7Km1o27377 at actwin_com>
- User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
> That's experience! And about good eye, please have a look to this:
Well it's not NO3. Hard to tell from the photo but it looks fine from here.
I'm use to seeing the plant in the gravel.
> and tell me what do you think! why Glosso's leaves are so much elongated
> and not rounded as usual? They look deformed in some way!
> They have also another strange thing: a tiny light brown border along all
> the edge of the leaves.. it's not possible to see it in the pic but in
> bright light is visible.
Well it's an easy plant to grow. It grows very fast so it depletes the
nutrients fast and shows deficiencies quick(it's a canary/indicator plant).
Best bet is to do a "shot gun approach", water change(I usually do 50%) and
then add all the nutrients back into your tank and add NO3/PO4/Traces 2-3
times during the week for 3 weeks. This cures most every problem anyone will
have(nutrient) and take the all the specific diagnoses out of individual
plants problems, individual deficiency traits or combinations of
deficiencies/problems. If something still is not right move on to copper in
the tap water(real bad tap water issues(no, not hardenss- high NO3's etc),
CO2, not enough fish load, not enough plant mass, algae eaters, water
changes, trimming etc.
It would be nice to know specifically what causes something but rather
difficult to really be certain that what your seeing is in fact what you
suspect(think of all the different factors and combinations possible). After
a few years or pain and suffering you can get decent at knowing what causes
what.... but something always throws you for a loop and you fall back on
this type of technique. Too much worry/work to chase every nutrient. Much
easier to simply replace with a known solution of fertilized water(say
remove 100 liters and add 100 liters of tap+ 1 gram of KNO3, 2 grams of
K2SO4, 100-200mg of K2PO4, 5mls of TMG, dechlorinator). I add another
similar dose of the NO3/PO4/TMG 2 more times during the week.
Got a problem? Add more algae eaters, do another water change and build the
nutrients back up.
This ain't rocket science:-) It's not hard and becomes the same old
The hardest thing is keeping up on it over the long haul. Everyone, and I
mean _everyone_ slacks off from time to time. Whether they admit to it or
not is another story.
>> At least for a few days you will have good conditions by doing this. If
>> you add PO4, NO3, Trace 2-3x a week including this you will have mastered
>> the nutrients pretty damn well.
> okay, things are going as follow:
> I made some test and after the PO4 burst (I raised it up to 0.4ppm), I made
> water change every day (at least 30%) and restore the GH/KH/K+/NO3 values;
> NO3 (after adding NaNO3 in the morning) = 5.0ppm ; in the evening after 10
> hours of lights, NO3 = 1.5ppm
That's a big drop. Do you have many fish and do you feed them well?
> NO3 (after adding NaNO3 in the morning) = 7.0ppm ; in the evening after 10
> hours of lights, still NO3 = 1.5ppm
Another big drop. Let it go a day or two longer and test.
> more thread algae at the evening. Glosso greener, but not perfect still
> (Look at the pics link).
Look at new growth only. Sounds like the tank was previously starved or
getting to that point.
> Trace elements but iron added in a *small* amount.
So you have separate Fe and traces(without Fe)?
> NO3 (after adding NaNO3 in the morning) = 8.0ppm ; in the evening after 10
> hours of lights, NO3 = 1.5ppm
> much more bubbles, less thread algae.
> Now PO4 is absent again. Should I add it again? All the bursts went away in
> matter of hours!!!
Well your starting to figure it out. Gee, where's it all going:)?
PO4 will drop rather fast. PO4 will taken in in 40 minutes or so. So in a
matter of hours you can remove all the PO4 that your kit can test for. If
there's KNO3 and K being added and you have decent traces, PO4 will go down
I don't let the PO4/NO3 stay at 0.0ppm for more than a day. I add enough for
2-3days supply(about 5-7ppm of NO3/.5-.7ppm of PO4/5mls of traces per 80
liters). You tank may use a little more or a little less but if you are in
this range, you going to very close. You can tweak it a little for your own
water/plants but that's a pretty stable range if water changes/algae
eaters/regular maintenance/good CO2 levels etc are maintained. CO2 is often
a big stickler. It gets folks that think they are doing everything right.
Always good to check that before you check the other items. Do you have
Always a good thing.
Another note on PO4/NO3 issues. It takes a little while for the plants/algae
waste to go from Dissolved organic Nitrogen(DON)->(DIN) dissolved inorganic
Nitrogen. Plants do not take up the DON well if at all(I need to look into
this part further). They much prefer the inorganic form. The same could be
said for the PO4. If your adding a fair amount to a tank that's fine and to
be expected to see a larger drop faster.
Fish and inverts excrement goes directly into NH4/urea which is a fast
uptake process for algae and plants. If excrement is low this interaction
seem likely to favor the plants. If higher it can favor the algae. If the
fish/inverts are algae eaters then they repack the algae into plant food
directly rather than taking the long way(the predator loop vs microbial
loop). Having a balance of microbial breakdown(filter/deep gravel etc) helps
convert all that plant waste(DON) into DIN. The fish/inverts add small
amounts of NH4 to balance the anion NO3- which gives you the best growth
rather than trying to have all of one or the other. We don't high levels of
NH4 anyway but nice little pulse dosed by the critters.