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Re: Inverted tanks-antigravity




--- Aquatic Plants Digest <Aquatic-Plants-Owner at actwin_com> wrote:
> 
> Aquatic Plants Digest    Monday, November 12 2001    Volume 04 :
> Number 1399
> 
> 
> 
> In this issue:
> 
> 	Re: Kati
> 	AGA meeting
> 	Re:limited tank
> 	Re: Big Al's -- AZ Aquatic Gardens -- & The Deliverers
> 	Filtration question
> 	Re:Multiple tanks on one CO2 pressure system
> 	AGA Conference Auction-Defense Fund
> 	Re: AGA Contest
> 	Re: azgardens... where is my flourite?
> 	Re: slow mail and deliveries of substrate
> 	AGA conference
> 	Re: AGA
> 	Re: Filtration question
> 
> See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing from the
> Aquatic Plants mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:19:39 -0800
> From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
> Subject: Re: Kati
> 
> >> I would suggest doing a more frequent dosing routine of K+. K will
> help
> > your
> >> tank greatly actually. TMG has it but you need more than what's
> supplied
> >> there.
> > 
> > I forgot to tell that i'm actually adding one tbsp of KNO3
> weekly...thats
> > also
> > why of the high NO3 measurements.. i'll switch to the KSO4 it
> sounds like
> > a reasonable tought.
> 
> You can vary your NO3 with KNO3 and the K+ with the K2SO4
> **independently**
> in this manner. Also PO4 using KH2PO4.
> K+ is the favorite. Potassium carbonate can be used for KH also.
> Everything
> has K+ in it as the cation.
> Some folks do not want to bother with all of that and use something
> like
> Yamato green etc or try to get by with fish waste alone.
> You can use PMDD also.
> I just tend to add them dry which is easy to get the levels I
> need(NPK and
> traces). That gives enough control over the nutrients without being
> too much
> hassle.
> > 
> >> What kind of test kits are you
> > using for these measurements?
> > 
> > I use Dupla test for all my measurements.
> 
> Ah heck, I have not seen or used them for what? Over ten years. Some
> one had
> a complete kit. I don't recall them being as accurate as something
> like
> Lamott but the cost a fair amount also from what I remember. It has
> been
> awhile so I cannot be too sure.   KH/pH should be decent etc but NO3
> is
> funny. That and CO2 I tend to be anal about.
> > 
> >> Do water changes weekly.Try adding a iron
> >> tablet/ball under the plant.
> > 
> > I do a 40% water change weekly (70% tap water,30% ro water to lower
> a bit
> > the
> > Hardness).
> 
> That's fine there. I've never found any correlation between hardness
> and
> plant growth unless it was a non CO2 enriched tank. I have rock hard
> water
> here, I use it straight.
> 
> > I don't think it could be an iron deficency though, i got laterite
> in the
> > substrate and the amount of TMG should be enough for that trace
> elements.
> 
> Well that covers that base.
> Even with laterite/flourite (whatever) you can have poor growth due
> to lack
> of micro nutrients in the water column. At higher lighting and CO2
> injection
> this really cannot be avoided. Sounds like just some more K and
> traces is
> all. Not much left to play with. Although at high light it is needed,
> it
> will still help at lower light values also.
> 
> > Anyway, i don't do iron tests (since i don't get sintomps of iron
> deficency
> > from the other plants and even if i would i don't think that those
> suggested
> > fe values mean that much) so it could be.... but i prefer not to
> add more
> > traces.
> 
> I'd do a water change to lower the NO3 down. If your using KNO3 try
> using it
> at 1/4 teaspoon(1.67 grams) per 35 gallons 2-3 times a week and
> 1/2teaspoon
> of K2SO4 once a week per 35 gallons of water.
> Iron test are more a qualitative measurement that you look at the
> plants and
> tell. I cannot say for certain what I am testing when I use even a
> nice test
> kit. I know how much gives nice color and plant growth. I also know I
> can
> push it pretty far if the NO3 are low and the CO2 is high, lights,
> K+, PO4
> and have enough grazers.
> Is 10mls in a 20 gallon 3x a week too much? I tried last week to see.
> No
> problems. I usually add 5mls 3x a week to 20 gallons but all the rest
> is in
> line also. Those tanks also have higher light than yours but I've
> tried it
> on lower light tanks. The dosing does not seem to precise on lower
> light
> values. Perhaps a little more for high light values.
> > 
> >> It is a beautiful plant
> > 
> > Indeed!! Didn't think it could be so challanging though!
> 
> It's not really. But I do think your adding pretty low micro
> nutrients. My
> tanks are rich in most everything except NO3 which is 5ppm or so some
> fish
> load. I add PO4 as well. The plant does very well in a variety of
> conditions.
> This is a general range that all plants will thrive well in. There is
> not
> one special trick plant. Some are less forgiving than others but if
> the tank
> is well cared for and regular maintenance is preformed then they will
> not go
> south and the other plants will do excellent also. You will find this
> out
> all on your own later. You might read Neil's article on the stages of
> the
> aquatic gardener on the Krib.
> 
> Regards, 
> Tom Barr
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Francesco Cremonini
> > Rome Italy
> > 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:37:10 -0800
> From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
> Subject: AGA meeting
> 
> Well for anyone that missed this one, too bad. You missed out. Two
> green
> thumbs up.
> Wim did a superb job showing all the elements of a Dutch plant
> contest and
> histories going back into the 1950's before thermostatic heaters.
> Very
> impressive. 
> 
>  The _first_ Amano tank is now in place in the USA. I and many others
> found
> Amano was warm, environmentally active, supported all the gals in the
> hobby
> and like to joke and had much interest in what folks are up to here
> in the
> USA and the native plants.
> 
> TN aquarium has one of the best layouts for an aquarium I've seen.
> Lot's of
> native tanks.
> 
> I want to thank all of those that came that I did not personally
> thank. It
> was nice to put a face to an email:) Thank you all for your kind
> comments.
> 
> Congrat's to all the winners of the AGA contest!
> 
> Thanks go out to the AGA committee than put this event on and Ms Nash
> for
> her Herculean efforts, without them this would not have happened.
> Regards, 
> Tom Barr   
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:45:13 -0800
> From: Thomas Barr <tcbiii at earthlink_net>
> Subject: Re:limited tank
> 
> > My tank is limited by something that I can't figure out and I was
> wondering
> > if you guys could help me. 30 gallon, 110 watt cf, co2 injected by
> > pressurized bottle flourite substrate, pretty heavily planted with
> all easy
> > fast growers, tank has been set up for about 6 months no3 5ppm, po4
> .2 , 8dgh
> > (equilibrium added at water change) ph 6.8, kh 4,I use seachem line
> of
> > supplements. I was adding the recommended dosage of flourish for
> months,
> > plants slowly grew less and less. I now add 4ml every three days
> thinking I
> > was limited by trace elements and have been doing this for a couple
> weeks
> > now. things seem to be somewhat improving but not the growth I used
> to have.
> > I also been dosing with k2s04, which i never used to thinking that
> i might be
> > limited by sulfer, about a 1/4 tsp at every water change (is this
> enough or
> > too much?).
> 
> Fine.
> 
> > My no3 isn't really being used- before I used to have to dose
> > with kno3. I also dose the recommended amount of seachems K (should
> I be
> > adding More?) Does anyone make a test kit for K and is it worth
> buying?
> 
> Yes and no in that order.
> 
>  I 
> > also  just removed alot of my fish load to see if my no3 gets used
> up. any
> > answers and suggestions to any of the questions would be helpful
> 
> I would bet you would see a drop in the NO3 if you add PO4 from some
> inorganic source(H3PO4, KH2PO4 etc). 0.2ppm is low and some kits get
> funny
> down at that range. Also if the other nutrients are in fact in those
> ranges
> you .2ppm should be used up rapidly unless your feeding heavily/have
> high
> fish loads etc. I would bet very strongly your tank is PO4 limited
> and
> adding KH2PO4 would shop you a good result in both the NO3 drop and
> the over
> all health of the plants within 1-2 days of adding it. If you wish to
> force
> down NO3, add the other stuff(K,P Traces, CO2).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr 
> > 
> > Jeff Vamos
> > Cessnabum1 at aol_com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:35:21 -0800 (PST)
> From: "S. Hieber" <shieber at yahoo_com>
> Subject: Re: Big Al's -- AZ Aquatic Gardens -- & The Deliverers
> 
> >> Robert H wrote, in part:
>  
> > I don't mean to sound
> > like
> > the guy thats always sticking up for the seller. I love to
> complain,
> > I drive
> > my vendors nuts with my complaints. But when I see people
> complaining
> > about
> > things that may be out of the companies control, it bothers me a
> > litttle. I
> > complain about the quality of products I buy, if it doesnt meet up
> to
> > its
> > hype, if the company failed to follow thru on a promise, if they
> are
> > gouging
> > prices, if they fail to correct a problem, mess up the billing, or
> > wont
> > communicate with me or handle it in a professional manner, but I
> donít
> > complain about their email being too slow, or about their shopping
> > cart
> > software, or shipping tracking information.
> 
> It's often harder for small companies to compete with bigger ones,
> that
> doesn't change the terms of competition.  All the service factors are
> relevant, including whether or not they send the right information
> promptly, how long deliveries take and how many shipping options are
> offered compared to other vendors, and how well (and promptly) they
> rectify transactions that have gone wrong.  Many of us are interested
> in the criticisms, positive and negative about all these things.
> > 
> > Maybe I am biased because of my own business, but I know there are
> > plenty of
> > little guys out there that cannot afford 24 hour customer service
> > operators,
> > or sophisticated computer order tracking systems, or even shopping
> > cart
> > software. It doesnt stop me from buying from them.
> 
> Just because I have learned that a vendor has, hypothetically, a
> somewhat primitive web site doesn't mean I won't shop there. I might
> have other reasons for support that vendor with my dollars -- perhaps
> the vendor is a good friend, a local business, a person for whom I
> have
> empathy, a place with good product selection or great prices, or
> maybe
> the vendor has provided especially good treatment while fixing
> transaction-gone-wrong in the past -- lots of things can be factored
> in.  But having the information so that I can decide for myself
> whether
> I do business with a site is helpful and I am glad when folks post
> it,
> even about poor email response, slow deliveries, etc.
> 
> > Some companies use
> > shopping carts to automate their orders so they donít have to
> answer
> > the
> > phone. 
> 
> I prefer that orders can be placed either way -- I certainly prefer
> that I can contact someone by phone if I need to discuss a problem
> about an order, even one placed via a website cart. 
> 
> > Az gardens only got a shopping cart a year or so ago. I donít
> > know if
> > its been more of a convience for the customer or the seller. I
> always
> > placed
> > orders with them by phone and prefered it that way. I am still
> trying
> > to get
> > my shopping cart operational, which is a huge amount of work.
> 
> It must be a tremendously difficult, and expensive, task.  It must be
> very hard to know what customers might prefer and every added choice
> presents higher software costs.  And then, there are some software
> designers/vendors out there that are overselling their product.
> 
> > Whatever works
> > for people. Thats why there are many places for customers to choose
> > from.
> 
> And the info, including the info about carts, email, software, etc.
> can
> help us make informed choices.
> 
> > 
> > Sounds like this guy caught AZ in a lie, or some sort of mis
> > understanding
> > to be more polite... something I would bring to their attention.
> 
> I think it's something that should be brought to lot's of people's
> attention.
> 
> > But
> > threating to cancell the credit card payment is a little harsh, 
> 
> As a comment, it's an expression of extreme dissatisfaction. As an
> action, it's actually more difficult than it sounds.  The
> card-issuing
> bank will insist that the cardholder seek, and probably evidence
> attempts for, remedy with the vendor before it will cancel a
> transaction -- unless a lost or stolen card is reported.
> 
> > again
> > my
> > biased opinion perhaps. 
> 
> I don't think your points sound biased.  They all make a lot of sense
> to me.  I think we disagree over how many aspects of a transaction
> are
> relevent when choosing vendors.  Things over which vendors have no
> control and which happen chronically, presumably affect all vendors
> and
> becomes a null-par factor in the competition.  But if a vendor is
> having (what should be anticipated) trouble with USPS while other
> vendors are doing quite well with other deliverers, I think that's
> relevant.  
> 
> If a vendor or one of it's agents lies, that, IMO, is one of the most
> important pieces of info a potential customer can have.  I am
> especially interested to learn if the vendor takes corrective action
> in
> those cases.  After all, since business transactions are based to a
> tremendous extent on trust on the part of all parties,
> trustworthiness
> is a critical piece of info.
> 
> > Unless you plan on returning the Flourite.
> 
> It's also probably illegal to accept a product then refuse to pay.
> 
> Regards,
> Scott H.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Find a job, post your resume.
> http://careers.yahoo.com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:09:14 -0500
> From: "Baker, Anthony" <anthony_baker at merck_com>
> Subject: Filtration question
> 
> This weekend I noticed an increase in visible, floating particulates
> /
> detritus in my 60 gallon tank.  The only filtration I have on the
> tank is an
> Eheim 2213 canister filter with bioballs and floss.  I just cleaned
> the
> filter 2 weeks ago, and I am wondering if this is enough for the
> tank?  I
> had a powerhead with a Tetra Phas (big) sponge filter, but removed it
> a
> couple months ago to have more room for plants.  Current fishload - 8
> ottos,
> 12 neons, 3 corys, 9-10 small SAEs, 3 aggies, 3 AFFs, 4 black
> mollies.  Also
> 1 farowella.
> 
> My question really is, should I add another canister filter?  I've
> been
> thinking that I need to increase circulation, but I don't want to
> take up
> more room in the tank.  I have considered adding a sump to this
> system so as
> to remove the heater and CO2 system from the display tank, but think
> the
> expense and time might not be worth is for a tank this size.  
> 
> Comments appreciated.
> 
> - -Tony
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:22:42 -0800
> From: Dave Gomberg <gomberg at wcf_com>
> Subject: Re:Multiple tanks on one CO2 pressure system
> 
> At 03:48 AM 11/12/01 -0500, Lobos wrote:
> >Jim,  You can easily service multiple aquariums with 1
> >regulator and tank.  What you need to do is build a
> >CO2 manifold that attaches to the regulator.  On this
> >manifold you put one needle valve per tank you wish to
> >service.  I have a 2 tank manifold that I built from
> >parts I got at Home Depot.  It took about $5 in brass
> >parts and 2-$20 needle valves.  Alternatively you
> >could buy a 6 tank manifold from M3
> 
> This is a very good summary.  You can also use my "poor man's
> manifold", 
> which comes free with each needle valve:
> 
> http://www.wcf.com/co2iron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - --
> Dave Gomberg, San Francisco       gomberg at wcf dot com
> Affordable CO2 for planted tanks:  http://www.wcf.com/co2iron
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:16:07 EST
> From: Dgrim62 at cs_com
> Subject: AGA Conference Auction-Defense Fund
> 
> Hi everyone,
> It was a pleasure to talk to everyone at the Conference last weekend.
> I met 
> many new people and caught up with others I met last year.
> 
> Daphne and I ended up with 48 bags of plants sold at the silent
> auction on 
> Saturday. Our cut from the sale of all these plants will be forwarded
> to the 
> Defense Fund managed by John Benn when we receive it. 
> 
> I wanted to thank Loh Kwek Leong for his generous donation of
> Christmas Moss 
> and Narrow Leaf Java Fern. The Java Fern brought bids as high as $45,
> I was 
> told. I also wanted to thank James, the fish department manager at
> Petland in 
> Duluth, Georgia, for his generous donation of plants for the auction
> and bags 
> for all the auction items we sold. James is a real plant guy. His
> store has 
> the BEST plant selection in the Atlanta area, and is only 10 minutes
> from my 
> house! Lastly, I wanted to thank Daphne, my partner in this venture
> for all 
> her help, and everyone who bought the plants. We had a ball.
> 
> Regards,
> Dave
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:49:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Erik Olson <erik at thekrib_com>
> Subject: Re: AGA Contest
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> The contest is open now... I blew it and forgot to pack my modem when
> dashing off to the convention last Thursday.  So while the winners
> did get
> announced Saturday afternoon at the convention, they were not
> available
> online until midnight.  I fully expect the site to be completely
> flooded
> for a few days (this happened last year), so be patient.  And of
> course,
> if you want higher-resolution images and instant access, you can get
> both
> years' contests on CD-ROM from me for $15...e-mail me for details.
> 
> Oh yeah: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org
> 
> It was great seeing everyone at the convention, btw, and hope it
> happens
> again next year!
> 
>   - Erik
> 
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Ellen O'Connell wrote:
> 
> > The website says the winners will be announced 11/10.  When will
> the
> > showcase of entries be up?  Does anyone know?  I've spent happy
> > hours
> > looking at last year's showcase and am looking forward to another
> > one.
> 
> - -- 
> Erik Olson
> erik at thekrib dot com
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:42:49 -0500
> From: Greg Morin <greg at seachem_com>
> Subject: Re: azgardens... where is my flourite?
> 
> >
> >I would like to share a problem I'm having with azgardens. i ordered
> 
> >6 bags of flourite 4-5 weeks ago and was told via telephone that the
> 
> >order was already packed, would go out the next day and should 
> >arrive by monday at the latest. That was 2 1/2 weeks ago. i called 
> >and left a message inquiring as to the status of my order. I 
> >received no response. i emailed the company and their response was 
> >to blame the usps re - the anthrax hype and my mailperson is too 
> >lazy to load the truck. I called back but their message mailbox was 
> >full and i couln't leave a message. This is an unacceptable way to 
> >conduct business. I will be charging back my credit card...   ken s
> 
> Well I don't know what is going on with AZgardens but I can tell you 
> why they haven't shipped your Flourite. They are currently over 140 
> days past due with us. We have not shipped to them since July because
> 
> of non payment.
> 
> - -Greg Morin
> - -- 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Seachem Laboratories, Inc.  www.seachem.com     888-SEACHEM
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:47:13 -0500
> From: Greg Morin <greg at seachem_com>
> Subject: Re: slow mail and deliveries of substrate
> 
> >The other potential source of delay, at least with Onyx, was that 
> >the mine was having problems delivering material to 
> >distributors...it all added up to a long delay.
> 
> Huh? Who told you that? We have had no problems with Onyx supplies to
> 
> our distributors.
> 
> - -Greg Morin
> - -- 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Seachem Laboratories, Inc.  www.seachem.com     888-SEACHEM
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:37:04 -0500
> From: "Daphne Freeman" <daphne.freeman at home_com>
> Subject: AGA conference
> 
> I would like to say thanks to everyone who worked on the conference,
> you all
> did a great job!  It was my first one and I had lots of fun.  The
> lectures
> were great and Amano was so nice.  His workshop was awesome!  The
> leaf
> seahorses in the quarantine room at the Aquarium were incredible!
> (Granted
> they don't go in a planted tank but they looked like they had leaves
> stuck
> on them, does that count?) Seachem was also generous with the
> freebies!
> 
> Thanks also to all the folks who bid so aggressively on the Defense
> Fund
> plants!  GREAT JOB!
> 
> I am curious how long Erik Olsen had to train to run up and down
> those
> aisles like his head was on fire!
> 
> I am also looking forward to a posting from Tom Barr on how to set up
> one of
> those incredible gravity-defying upside down tanks he, he!!!  Perhaps
> that
> assists in making sure that CO2 doesn't escape? :)
> 
> Daphne
> 
> ------------------------------
Tom, 

Doesn't Dupla sell something to do this?  It sounds like it would be in
their price range -- of course the dense matter costs extra.  ;-)

Regards,
Scott

>  how to set
> up one of
> > those incredible gravity-defying upside down tanks he, he!!!
> 
> Extremely difficult. Albert Einstein diagramed a method to do this.
> You need
> a large spiral coil with matter about as dense as that of a white
> dwarf star
> around 2-3 solar masses. Speed this matter up to near the speed of
> light and
> within the inside of this coil you will produce anti gravity, such a
> device
> for the _high tech_ aquarist. 

__________________________________________________
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