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Re: Follow up on CO2 Regulators

First a simple note to Shawn about a personal problem of his that is affecting
the group at large:  Please cut/trim/eliminate your sig.  It is wasteful of list
space, annoying and commercial.  If you wish to advertise, put a simple one line
URL and keep the publicity on your own web page.

I do also believe Neil did not call you an idiot.  He simply stated that only an
idiot would run a decanting regulator.  That should not include anyone reading
this list I assume.

As a reminder I wish to point out some double-talk on your part.  Because, for
someone who likes to point out that they have heard enough from someone else who
has not run a "professional system," you offer only items of heresy that you
really don't seem to completely comprehend.  You further do not qualify your
remarks by mentioning where they came from.  It does not take an engineer to
comment on compressed gas regulation, so you really don't have to stress that
point.  But if you'd care to read back some lists, you can find out for yourself
what Neil does for a living.

>CO2 as used in our hobby, is a gas,

So far so good.  We do understand that it is a gas at output, but IS stored as a
liquid, right?  Good.

>and if one speaks to any knowledgeable engineer, ( comments posted notwithstanding)

Here's where you need to qualify your statements.  Right now I am in shouting
distance of about 100 or more engineers.  Maybe some 50 or so registered
professional engineers.  Would you like to take bets on who knows more about
compressed gas and aquaria related details?

>they will tell you, that a two stage regulator is of no value for the use of CO2.

That's interesting.  You will later contradict yourself.

>The two stage regulation helps to even out the flow of a gas, but in our hobby,
>the "Gas" is a liquid as most of you are aware, so buying the more expensive 2
>stage type regulators is a waste of money.

This is one contradiction, but not the one I was referring to.  So, which is it,
are we regulating a gas or a liquid?  1. Your engineers don't know what they're
talking about and are filling the room with hot air, or 2. you have not been
able to accurately remember what they said and convey it to the forum.  That's
the problem with not doing your own actual research.  

>Two gauge regulators is another matter.

It is another matter.  You don't need two gauges.  You don't even need one.
There are a number of commercial systems (note, "commercial" not "professional")
on the market with a single gauge.  I mean, if the first gauge only shows you
the pressure in the cylinder, and it remains roughly constant until the contents
are exhausted, it really isn't much of a necessity.  Weigh the cylinder.  Yes.
is *IS* a matter of convenience that some people will pay for.  The same can be
said for a second stage.

>We in Aquarium Landscapes, typically use on a single 75 gal. tank an
>output pressure of 2-3 psi. 

And you measure that at the regulator or the metering valve?  If you're
observing it at the regulator, I would believe that your provided range is never
constant.  And in fact more than likely drifts up and down from even the numbers
you just gave.

>I am always willing to learn, but resent the terms "idiot etc, and
>aggressive attitudes of some persons, when they wish to make a point.

I think some people have a hard time swallowing someone jumping in with a
statement like "dual stages are useless and a waste of money."  Making the
statement without so much as looking for comment or discussion.

>" Co2 in a cylinder is a liquid with a head of gas at the top of the
>cylinder.Pressure of the gas at the top of the cylinder is dependent upon
>storage temperature. At low gas withdrawal rates & stable temperatures, head
>pressure will remain relatively constant until all the liquid in the
>cylinder has been vaporized. "

Seems to me that this is the same information that is generally agreed upon in
here.  Nothing new or revolutionary about it.  It is something that anyone using
compressed CO2 should know.  Including the guy at your local filling place, be
it a beverage product place or fire extinguisher place.  You might as well be
paraphrasing text that has been posted here within the past few days.

>"A two stage regulator is typically used to maintain constant gas delivery
>pressure as inlet gas pressure to the regulator varies. With a stable inlet
>pressure this feature of a two stage regulator is typically NOT REQUIRED."

Again, I thought this information was already widely accepted in here.  Where's
the revolutionary content?  Where's the content that prompted your assertive
comments in your first post?  Seems like you're singing a very different tune.
A dual stage product *CAN* be (in fact is for most people) overkill.  However,
it is not useless.  You do not know that others will be able to keep the
cylinder in conditions to promote a steady and constant inlet pressure.  Some
people may very well want the super-low decay characteristics associated with
some dual stage products.

If you had followed the previous discussions you claim to have read, I believe
there would not have been any need for your recent blanket assertions.  If you
want to know why some people get testy, it's because it does seem rather foolish
for someone to chime in after all the discussion that has transpired and then
post something contradictory, without merit and in a very accusatory tone.

Lastly...  There are a few good systems out there, already packaged and tested
that are perfectly suitable for most people.  And there are also components out
there perfectly suitable for those individuals who simply want to roll their own
for whatever reason.  Many makes and models and many price points.  And
certainly many combinations and possibilities for implementation.  Don't rule
something out because a friend of a friend, heard from three engineers, who used
to hang out at the corner coffee shop .....  You get the point.