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Fluoride and eggs (was Re: floride in tap water)

Neil Travis wrote:
> I think you had better re examine your chemistry.

As a chemist, I'm a pretty fair electrical engineeer, so I certainly could
be wrong here.

> In Melb if we have any clay deposits in the water it completely chelates the
> fluoride.

I haven't the foggiest what this statement means. The verb, to chelate,
means to combine with (a metal) to form a chelate ring. Fluorine, or it's
ionized/salt form, fluoride, are not metals, and nothing forms an organic
ring with any kind of clay, AFAIK.

> Not sure what your relation to chlorine has as I stated earlier I made a
> mistake. Chlorine does dissipate with time or aeration. 

Elemental chlorine, as does elemental fluorine, dissipates. They are
incredibly reactive and will combine with anything they can, or even with
themselves to become a gas. They *do* go away quickly, as they are powerful
oxidizers. They do nasty things when they combine with fish gills, too.

>  The most serious is your assumption that regular water changes will solve
> all fluoride build ups problems in the water.

> In fact it increases it dramatically.
> Say you have a 10% evaporation rate then you have 100% of the fluoride in
> 90% of the water then you remove another 15% of total tank capacity and
> replace it with 25% of tank capacity to fill it then you have 115% of
> original Fluoride concentration and so on with every water change. Simple
> mathematics.

I said "changes" not "replacement of evaporation." Your arithmetic seems
close, the increase would be 7.5%. It applies to all stable dissolved solids
equally, and would give a steady increase in tds if we did that. We have no
argument about that. Add RO, DI or distilled water to replace evaporation or
*all* salts will increase with time. If they happen to include
calcium/magnesium, that could inhibit some egg hatching, I think, too.

> on distilled water I did not advocate using plain distilled but using it as
> a starting point. I add salts to mine but at least I am sure it is fluoride
> free as I have had many experiences with Fluoride egg hardening and after a
> lot of experimentation and consultation with Melbourne water got it right.
> Hardening of eggs is fairly obvious when you see a fish in an egg trying to
> get out but can't and eventually dies.

I've seen that effect, too, but never because of fluoride in the drinking
water. Many of our western desert fish, in the US, live in highly
fluoridated springs that you don't want your kids to drink if you value
their pearly teeth, but the eggs hatch just fine, anyway.

I keep about 50-60 killifish species as well as a lot of rainbows, catfish
and anabantids in my fluoridated tap water (sometimes diluted with RO), and
only when I do something stupid (like soak in too-strong acriflavin or
formalin) do eggs resist hatching. I have about 200 ppm of CaCO3 equivalent
in my water, and the Ca (or Mg) seems to hurt hatching of some rainforest
fish eggs. Partial dilution to below 100 ppm seems to solve that one,

The Green Bigot Brigade and their more reactionary allies have spread a lot
of hype about the hazards of fluoridation. I quit buying it about 1960, and
time has proven them totally wrong. I'm not at all sure about calcium being
the culprit in egg-hatching problems, but I *know* fluoridated water isn't
doing it because of trace amounts of NaFl. I won't participate in further
spreading of that (now old and "dissipated" in the US) hysteria.

If my chemistry is way off base, I'm sure we have some real chemists here
who can straighten me out.



Wright Huntley, Fremont CA, USA, 510 494-8679  huntleyone at home dot com

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